BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » "The two people I love most..."

besleybean · September 5, 2014 5:45 am

Hang on.
Mary was about to killl Magnussen to protect herself..from possible death, if he was to give away her location.
Sherlock just happened to be in the wrong time and the wrong place.
She panicked and made what she thought was the best choice she could.
We know she was wrong, but that's another story.

Liberty · September 5, 2014 7:12 am

But if she really believed that she was the best thing that ever happened to John, then maybe she really was motivated by John's best interests. And supposedly, she puts herself at more risk by not killing Magnusson, because she wants to protect John from being a murder suspect. I don't think she is selfless, but I think it's unfair to judge on that incident.

Snootiegirl99 · September 5, 2014 9:54 am

Schmiezi wrote:
Well, I think we get an idea of how she might react. She risked killing his best friend to protect her own happiness even though she knew exactly how much Sherlock's faked death has hurt John.
Meaning, she risked hurting John to avoid emotional hurt for herself.

That's an interesting point. Is John more angry at Mary for deceiving him or for shooting Sherlock?

besleybean · September 5, 2014 3:47 pm

The latter,I hope!

SusiGo · September 5, 2014 5:06 pm

I think so, too. Because one of the last things he says to Sherlock in Baker Street is "She shot you". Just look at his face in that moment and when he looks at Mary afterwards.

Punch me in the face · September 5, 2014 5:53 pm

besleybean wrote:
Why would John think Sherlock wasn't interested in him?
And even then, why wouldn't he marry another man?

Maybe because of this: "I think you should know that I consider myself married to my work, and while I'm flattered by your interest... I'm really not looking for any...". Plus has it never happened to you to miss the opportunity of a relationship just because you were so convinced you didn't stand a chance that you couldn't even see that your feelings were reciprocal? Happened to me a couple of times in the past.

As for marrying another man... I don't know. Maybe John is gay but only discovered it when he fell in love with Sherlock and doesn't want to admit it, maybe he was convinced to be straight and doesn't know what to think of his feelings for Sherlock, maybe because it's Sherlock and only Sherlock that makes him feel that way, whatever his gender, and that he wouldn't fall for another man other than Sherlock (I once was kinda obsessed with a woman, nothing happened with her because I never told her, even though I know she was lesbian, I didn't know exactly what I felt about her, and yet I had never been interested in any woman before, never been interested in any woman after, the simple idea of kissing "disgusts" me while it didn't while I imagined kissing her, so maybe I could have been "lesbian" only with her lol) I don't know.

As for marrying Mary, well, many people marry the wrong person thinking they're making the right choice.

One of my workmates got dumped by a man after years of living together. They even had a kid together. He dumped her saying he'd always been gay but couldn't admit it to himself until he met that guy that gave him the will and the courage to come out of the closet. He said she was a nice girl but that he'd never been in love with her because he'd never been attracted by women, but that he stayed with her, had a kid with her and all to try and convince himself (and his family) that he was straight... Let's say it happened 3 or 4 years ago and she hasn't coped yet...
*****************

Anyway, if some moments in TSOT made me laugh to tears, most of them broke my heart, no matter what we thing of their relationship (friendship or more). IE. when the photograph says "Just the bride and groom please!" and John has to say "Sherlock!" to make him step aside, because Sherlock stayed there as if it was also HIS wedding, as if he was an equal to Mary.

John's wedding also reminded mine back in 2005. I had a very good friend who I already knew for a couple of years before I met the man who became my husband. I had a crush on that guy, and he often joked about us being together and all though I never took him seriously because he had a girlfriend, and even if he didn't, well, I thought he was too smart, too beautiful... etc and that he would never be interested in a girl like me. Then I met my (future) husband and fell in love with me. When we got married, it was an evidence to me to ask my old friend to be my best man. He admitted he hated weddings and all, that he couldn't see the point, but that he would do it for me because I was her best friend. He was sitting next to me during the wedding, just like Sherlock and John. And he drank wine. A lot of wine. And he ended up looking at with a desperate expression on his face and said "Why didn't you marry me instead?" (thank God my husband didn't hear this! My friend's gf did though and looked daggers at me for the rest of the party...). After the wedding, he tried his best to avoid me, then he moved far away, changed his number, and I've never heard from him since

I didn't realise how bad he must have felt, being asked to be best man if he really was in love with me, but seeing TSOT really made me realise this...

I felt so bad for Sherlock during the whole episode... and there is so much subtext...

Snootiegirl99 · September 5, 2014 11:32 pm

SusiGo wrote:
I think so, too. Because one of the last things he says to Sherlock in Baker Street is "She shot you". Just look at his face in that moment and when he looks at Mary afterwards.

Yes, that's a pretty wrenching moment.

Something none of us have mentioned in this thread is John's sister who is gay. Perhaps John has seen how she has struggled with being out and doesn't want to have to go through that himself.

Punch me in the face · September 6, 2014 12:15 am

Yes, fair point, Snootie!
After all, we don't know much about John's "background". I mean, tell me if i'm wrong but he never mentions his parents, who knows? Maybe they stopped talking to Harry because they couldn't accept her homosexuality, maybe they stopped talking to John too because he stood up for his sister... I don't know... But then it's true that if he realised (or has known for long) that he is gay, he wouldn't dare to come out because of his sister's experience (he might have seen her being bullied too)

besleybean · September 6, 2014 7:48 am

I think this is pushing it a bit.
He's a man in his 30s, ex-soldier and doctor.
He's more than capable of sticking up for himself...and it's the 21st century in London, not the Bible belt or Saudi Arabia!
I also think that if John's parents had been alive, we would have met them at the wedding.

tonnaree · September 6, 2014 11:30 am

More of John's history is one of the things I want most in the series.

Snootiegirl99 · September 6, 2014 12:22 pm

besleybean wrote:
I think this is pushing it a bit.
He's a man in his 30s, ex-soldier and doctor.
He's more than capable of sticking up for himself...and it's the 21st century in London, not the Bible belt or Saudi Arabia!
I also think that if John's parents had been alive, we would have met them at the wedding.

Actually, I agree with you. I just thought it was an idea to throw out there.

John's going to do what he wants at this point.

silverblaze · September 6, 2014 9:50 pm

It's a bit like trying to put the circle of one's favorite ship into the square of the show. Moftiss have been quite clear about how they see the relationship. However, this backstory great fanfic makes!

Snootiegirl99 · September 6, 2014 10:19 pm

silverblaze wrote:
It's a bit like trying to put the circle of one's favorite ship into the square of the show. Moftiss have been quite clear about how they see the relationship. However, this backstory great fanfic makes!

Can you point me to Moftiss' comments? I'd love to read some stuff. Probably in another thread, eh?

besleybean · September 6, 2014 10:24 pm

Mark and Steven have both said they didn't write the characters as gay, but they don't mind people seeing them that way.

silverblaze · September 6, 2014 10:35 pm

Well, I've seen every Sherlock interview with them on youtube that I could find. So in at least one of them. Moffat tends to refer to it as 'the greatest friendship in fiction'.

besleybean · September 6, 2014 10:36 pm

As do many Sherlockians, including myself!

silverblaze · September 8, 2014 3:24 pm

Here's one example, if people are still interested.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO7mjI0aRXc

Mattlocked · September 8, 2014 4:02 pm

They also kept saying "Moriarty is dead." Now... we are not so sure about that, are we?

@Punch me in the face: thank you for writing down these experiences. I think quite a lot of people made similar ones or at least know others who did. So that's maybe also one reason for Johnlock theories.
Thanks for pointing them out, very interesting!

besleybean · September 8, 2014 4:42 pm

On the Moriarty point: he actually seems to reappear at the end of HLV.

Snootiegirl99 · September 8, 2014 5:58 pm

silverblaze wrote:
Here's one example, if people are still interested.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO7mjI0aRXc

Thank you!

@punch Yes, thank you for sharing your experiences. Art does imitate life after all.