BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Johnlock: The Official Debate

besleybean · September 5, 2014 7:37 pm

I haven't seen Sherlock sexually attracted to anybody.
John has been sexually attracted to women at least twice and satisfied at least once by a woman..

Zatoichi · September 5, 2014 7:39 pm

@lovely_light: You didn´t offend me, everything´s fine. And I actually like people coming diretly to the point (in their own time, but rather quick ). I just felt you answered to something I didn´t really say, so I wanted to clarify that. I´m sorry it came across wrong.. (also not a native speaker..)

Liberty · September 5, 2014 7:54 pm

Zatoichi wrote:
Liberty wrote:
That's one of the clinchers for me. If John was bisexual, he wouldn't claim not to be gay. The subtext there is "I'm not gay or bisexual" (i.e. my attraction to Sherlock is not sexual, because I'm not orientated that way). Like many people, he just leaves bisexuality out of the picture. But it's implied that he's not.

We also don't see any attractions to men. He's clearly attracted to and dates women, but not a single boyfriend. He's straight.
He might be straight but still into Sherlock.. I don´t want to say he is, I don´t think he is, just that such things happen. So many people who identify as straight have experienced a crush on someone of the same gender.. so that´s not a clincher to me.

Liberty wrote:
Sherlock is more ambiguous, and I did think he was gay at the beginning. But the only/main sexual attraction we see is to a woman (Irene). His sexuality is clearly repressed, but I'm getting repressed heterosexuality, or possibly bisexuality (but heterosexuality is more common, so unless I see an attraction to a man, I'll stick with that for now).
I see sapiosexuality - I think he´s attracted to Irene´s brain, and only secondary to her body (if at all). Of course we can´t know for sure, but if I imagine a scenario with genderswapped Irene I can easily see his reactions to be quite similar. I think he has a very specific set of attributes that lead to sexual attraction, and gender isn´t necessarily one of them.

Oh, I agree that it's not unheard of for straight people to have same-sex attractions. I haven't exactly been 100% straight myself. But, he says he's not gay in the context of explaining why Sherlock isn't his boyfriend i.e. because he's not sexually attracted to him. If he actually fancied him, that answer doesn't work.

I also agree that Sherlock's attracted to Irene's mind, but ... I think it's an overall attraction too. I know people will say that Sherlock is different, sexually, but I'm not sure he is. I mean, we're all attracted to minds, aren't we? As part of the package? He suppresses his sexuality so it's not clear if he's repressing ordinary sexuality, or if (as well as repressing it), he has some special sexuality that is unique to him. But the simplest explanation is that we're just seeing repression, rather than repression combined with a unique sexuality. I think Irene's mind is what breaks through the repression barrier, but I think what's underneath is attracted to her as a woman as well.

(Also, I kind of like the idea of raging hormones being steadfastedly repressed. rather than a lack of earthly desires. I find it sexy for some reason, so I'm sticking with it).

Given that statistically he's more likely to be straight, and that we only see an attraction to a woman, I'd go with straight, whilst being happy to be shown otherwise. I do think Sherlock's sexuality is still more ambiguous than John's.

Last edited by Liberty (September 5, 2014 8:01 pm)

SusiGo · September 5, 2014 8:01 pm

But if you look at the scenes with Irene it is IMO very clear that he is not sexually attracted to her. Look at them sitting in front of the fireplace, a romantic setting if there is any and what does he do? Asks for John and states he is not hungry. In a conversation in which hunger and eating are clearly used as sexual allusions. And this is even before the pulse-taking.

Zatoichi · September 5, 2014 8:03 pm

tonnaree wrote:
I never saw any sexual attraction to Irene in Sherlock. As a matter of fact everytime she even aluded to having sex with him he looked at her like she had lost her mind.

I saw challange, curiousity, frustration and anger, but not sexual attraction.

Oh, I think the game they played definitely had a sexual component to it.. although I agree he would never actually have "dinner" with her (no matter what Ben says about Karachi ^^). It´s mainly a cerebral thing, but both use attraction as one of their weapons.

Liberty · September 5, 2014 8:16 pm

Well, maybe it's another case of seeing what you want to see! I see him repressing attraction and keeping it hidden. But Irene seems to pick up on it, and we're told that she knows what men like. I think it's because Sherlock's attracted to Irene that he manages to win (because he understands what she feels). Apart from anything else (while accepting that it's open to interpretation) I see a sexual chemistry between them. And also that he finds it painful to win in the Sherlocked scene.

Zatoichi · September 5, 2014 8:21 pm

Liberty wrote:
Zatoichi wrote:
Liberty wrote:
Sherlock is more ambiguous, and I did think he was gay at the beginning. But the only/main sexual attraction we see is to a woman (Irene).   His sexuality is clearly repressed, but I'm getting repressed heterosexuality, or possibly bisexuality (but heterosexuality is more common, so unless I see an attraction to a man, I'll stick with that for now).
I see sapiosexuality - I think he´s attracted to Irene´s brain, and only secondary to her body (if at all). Of course we can´t know for sure, but if I imagine a scenario with genderswapped Irene I can easily see his reactions to be quite similar. I think he has a very specific set of attributes that lead to sexual attraction, and gender isn´t necessarily one of them.

I also agree that Sherlock's attracted to Irene's mind, but ... I think it's an overall attraction too. I know people will say that Sherlock is different, sexually, but I'm not sure he is. I mean, we're all attracted to minds, aren't we? As part of the package?   He suppresses his sexuality so it's not clear if he's repressing ordinary sexuality, or if (as well as repressing it), he has some special sexuality that is unique to him. But the simplest explanation is that we're just seeing repression, rather than repression combined with a unique sexuality. I think Irene's mind is what breaks through the repression barrier, but I think what's underneath is attracted to her as a woman as well.

(Also, I kind of like the idea of raging hormones being steadfastedly repressed. rather than a lack of earthly desires. I find it sexy for some reason, so I'm sticking with it).

I actually agree with everything you said - especially about the sexyness of repressed raging hormones ^^. I don´t think sapiosexuality means that he is only interested in her brain and has no other earthly desires, just that intelligence is the main factor in sparking sexual interest. But you´re right, most people are attracted to minds somehow.. so I´m not even sure that´s a necessary distinction from other sexual orientations (that´s what happens if I try to use fancy new terms ^^). As long as there remains a possiblity he could be attracted to a woman somewhen somehow I don´t actually care too much.. (his porn preference seems to support your reading, but there´s whole other thread discussion that question.)

Harriet · September 5, 2014 9:02 pm

I wonder what a unique sexuality might be. Same wonder about a normal preference

A lovely light · September 5, 2014 9:05 pm

Zatoichi wrote:
@lovely_light: You didn´t offend me, everything´s fine. And I actually like people coming diretly to the point (in their own time, but rather quick ). I just felt you answered to something I didn´t really say, so I wanted to clarify that. I´m sorry it came across wrong.. (also not a native speaker..)

Pfuuuuuu *heavy stone rolling from heart*

tonnaree · September 5, 2014 9:28 pm

Liberty wrote:
Well, maybe it's another case of seeing what you want to see! I see him repressing attraction and keeping it hidden. But Irene seems to pick up on it, and we're told that she knows what men like. I think it's because Sherlock's attracted to Irene that he manages to win (because he understands what she feels). Apart from anything else (while accepting that it's open to interpretation) I see a sexual chemistry between them. And also that he finds it painful to win in the Sherlocked scene.

Once again, I see it differently. It's losing that Sherlock finds painful. At the beginning of the Sherlocked scene he's so angry he can barely sit still. He's positively seething during Irene and Mycrof's negotiations. Then when he is finally able to solve the puzzle he gloats. His reveal is condescending and icy. And then he walks away with a sarcastic "Sorry about dinner,."

besleybean · September 5, 2014 9:31 pm

I think there's at least a hint of regret...

Liberty · September 5, 2014 9:51 pm

@ Zatoichi, yes the porn preference is interesting, even if it's just saying that he does use porn. (So not entirely repressed. Or maybe he just looks as a mental exercise and doesn't .... never mind).

@ Tonnaree, that's so funny - I see the opposite of icy! He seems to be practically boiling over with emotion in that scene, that he's trying desparately but not entirely successfully to suppress! One of my favourite things is that he has dilated pupils while he's telling Irene that he knew she'd fallen for him because her pupils were dilated. Maybe a trick of the light, but rather lovely. And I love the bared teeth when he says that sentiment is a chemical defect found in the losing side. He looks heartbroken rather than gloating when he makes Irene lose. Yes, he's acting cold and icy. But not acting very well.

And also he does save her, and keeps her phone.

Last edited by Liberty (September 5, 2014 9:51 pm)

Punch me in the face · September 5, 2014 11:15 pm

As much as I hate to admit it, I also think there is something between Sherlock and Irene.

Well, on Irene's side, as we all know, it's particularly obvious.

But as for Sherlock... He sure wouldn't have been interested in her if she had just been a beautiful body with an average brain. He is firstly "attracted" by his brain, and then I'm not quite sure about a sexual attraction (I sense more curiosity than attraction on that point) but he definitely has "sentiments" for her.

I mean...
He doesn't change his text ringtone...
He rushes to the mantelpiece to get her present (oh, and the look on his face when he stares at the packet) and quickly isolate himself in his room to open it...
He looks really upset when he discovers the phone and understands what it means
He slams the door when John comes and asks him if he is okay
He immediately calls Mycroft. Oh, sure, it could be just to let his brother know that the "enemy" is dead, but haven't you noticed how he always turns to Mycroft when he is hurt (physically: ie. in HLV, he mostly sees Mycroft in his mind palace / psychologically: it's more subtle, but when John refuses to talk to him in TEH, he looks for Mycroft's company while he usually just kicks him out of the place whenever Mycroft visits Baker St)
He accepts the cigarette
He composes a sad melody on the violin
He looks both angry and hurt when he discovers he has been fooled and that Irene is still alive
He sends her a "Happy New Year" text while he never replied to her messages before
He seems rather pleased to find her asleep in Baker Street...
He's dangerously close to her mouth at some point (wonder if Irene would have finally dared to steal a kiss if not interrupted by Mrs Hudson...)
He acts cold during the Sherlocked scene, just as she does (well, at least until she starts crying!) but they're both hurt, even if Sherlock probably jubilates to finally defeat her (>> revenge) and to redeem himself in the eyes of Mycroft, he looks hurt "inside"
He saves her (and probably puts himself into great danger to do so)
He keeps her phone
He re-reads her texts! (note that he waits for John to leave the place before he does so. And there's a muscle in his cheek that tightens quite the same way it does when he looks at John's empty chair just before the wedding in TSOT, just saying!)

Well...

My only "comfort" in this episode (Not saying I don't like it, I do, and the filming, the colours... Are truly amazing in this one. Just saying I dislike --I'm being polite here-- that sort of mutual love interest between Sherlock and Irene, hehe) is John's obvious jealousy (come on! My mum hardly knows about Johnlock and when she saw that ep she was all like "God, he really is jealous!" lol): there are a myriad of examples to illustrate this (the need baby names thing etc) but I really like how John looks confused, lost, jealous, ill at ease, hurt?? during Sherlock and Irene's exchange (when she says something like "I would have you right here on this desk), he doesn't know where to look anymore, he clears his voice... poor thing! I was nearly as jealous as him during the whole episode (and during the Janine scene too, even though having read the canon I knew Sherlock was faking), not for my sake of course, but I felt so bad for John!

Love Irene's text though, the one saying "John's blog is hilarious. I think he loves you more than I do"

Last edited by Punch me in the face (September 5, 2014 11:17 pm)

Zatoichi · September 6, 2014 3:33 am

I deeply admire how they manage to give us all something sexy and affirming, no matter how different the personal preferences are.. I think that´s ultimately what they do (and hopefully keep on doing), providing some kind of buffet where everyone can pick the ingredients he or she likes best .

Schmiezi · September 6, 2014 6:09 am

Kenogami wrote:
Oh God I'm writhing a novel!!! As I said before would like to write a meta on a non-johnlock point of view, episode by episode.

As I have said before, I would sooo love to read it, because I have not read a single one of it (at least not one that uses screenshots and analysises instead of simply stating opinions) and I would be extremely interested in it!!

Liberty · September 6, 2014 7:32 am

I like your points about Irene, Punch me in the face, and some interesting points about John's reaction. I also think (and this is probably because I'm seeing John as straight) that there is some envy there - we see John courting women, but Irene goes for Sherlock and his apparent cool detachment. And then they act almost as if John isn't in the room. But I agree that there seems to be some jealousy (even if I don't see it as sexual jealousy). John and Sherlock seem to be close at the beginning of the episoode, but once Irene arrives, John is completely shut out. They don't work on the case together at all, apart from Sherlock asking John to check the flight. And Sherlock's feelings seem to be a complete mystery to John throughout. Twice, Sherlock even keeps it from John that he knows Irene is alive, and both times John thinks he is probably grieving.

Anyway, I'm getting off the point a little. That's how I see it, and I agree, Zatoichi, that they've allowed room for different interpretations. I think that's deliberate.

I'm another one that would like to read a non-johnlock meta. But I think it will be difficult to prove a negative. For me, a lot of the evidence for Johnlock applies just as well to them being friends who love each other. The difficulty is proving that there isn't a sexual element there. Or maybe the onus should be on those who see the sexual element to prove it is there. I have a feeling that we can't prove it either way, though.

silverblaze · September 6, 2014 10:18 pm

I don't think they deliberately left room for interpretation. I think ANY story about a close friendship would give the shipper enough material to work with. They ship Frodo and Sam too.

besleybean · September 6, 2014 10:22 pm

Yes, presumably they look at each other in that special way, too....and Sam marries as well!

silverblaze · September 6, 2014 10:37 pm

As if that's ever stopped anyone.

Zatoichi · September 7, 2014 5:00 am

Chortle.. well, that´s why I think they deliberately gave the shippers something to work with, because they know what happens in fandoms and because they know that everyone (well, almost everyone) likes them some juicy m/m-fantasies and it ensures an enthusiastic and devoted following (as it did).