@ Kenogami Yes, it's frustrating out there!  I'll start reading something that's intelligent and well-written, only to have it end up being a completely one-sided view of how everything, everything means Johnlock.   It makes me itch to jump in and say "but what about ...?", which is probably partly why I've chosen a forum as my Sherlockian "home".  Out there, actually, I think there are often a lot of very good points and great observation, but anything that doesn't fit is dismissed.

Fitting everything into Johnlock can spoil the story, I think.  I think I remember reading somewhere that Sherlock could never fall for Irene because she beat and drugged him, non-consensually.  Well, there are so many arguments against that it's untrue.  The big one being that she did what she did in self-defence, and Sherlock knows that (and, in fact, helps to defend her in the end).  That she uses the minimum of violence to get her phone back.  Sherlock drugs John in the very next episode.  And so on.  It undermines their case to sweepingly dismiss everything that doesn't fit.  But in the end, I personally believe, it misses the point of ASIB and Sherlock dealing with his own feelings. 

Of course, people are entitled to do that, and I obviously don't have any objection to that (just a little bit of disappointment because I'd like to read a more balanced view).  But I get a little riled (and can understand people involved with show getting riled) with the homophobia assumptions. 

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by being OK, and yet not OK, with them ending up together at the end.  I'd love if you would elaborate!  Because I feel something similar.   I'm fine with the idea of it and would watch and enjoy, etc.  But I think it would be a mistake.   Partly because it's been set up wrong to start with (making John straight, etc.), partly because I like the friendship, partly because in some ways (this won't be popular), I don't think they'd make such a good couple if they were lovers rather than friends.
 

@Kenogami, I feel you! I had to blacklist some tags on tumblr and unfollowed some prominent blogs because the aggressiveness really upset me. I can live with one-sided viewpoints and the inflational use of the term "proof", but when it gets narrow-minded and insulting I´m out of it. Thankfully this forum is different!

I would correlate more what Kenogami said with what Martin said and with the question why he said that, which was in discussion on this very forum and very topic, so i think the points Kenogami makes are in the subject. 'cuase while here is peace and fun, and if one looks only on this forum , one ask himself what Martin mean and would think that martin exagerates and makes from a fly an elephant. So the tumblr discussion is necesarrly if we discuss what Martin mean, because Tumblr is the main place of politicisation of Sherlock. This forum is only one platform, Tumblr are like hundred or more, so for someone googling out there and making his mind about quantity not quality of discussions,  would get another dimension of the things. 

I was not into Sherlock too much to google it before S3, so i have no idea how it was before - perhaps that is why it smaks my more powerful in the face than people who graduadly took the Tumblr way of discussion and got from light and fun discussions to those which are running now. But now is very very politicised on tumblr - not all, but a great deal-, there are many people who are expecting a certain way for Moffat and Gatiss to handle it and will be greatly disspointed if they don't get what they want. That puts pressure on them, exactly because Gatiss is very involved in LGBT movement. Many people on tumblr are not taking lightly Sherlock  anymore, there is not so much fun between those feuds towards shipping /non-shipping / other shippings. Lets not take only Martin, lets take Moffat as well 
=1em"I don't go on Tumblr. That's a boring answer, but we have to stay away from it, particularly me. My friends just keep saying, 'Don't go on Tumblr. =1emThey're all tremendously cross.'"

to understand how the tumblr phenomen is important to understand some declaration of the actors and creators of the show.

For sure, we can marginalize it and say that has nothing to do with this forum and other forums, but as long as Tumblr influences, i think we should take it in account. 
 

I think the discussions in this forum are reasonable and not comparable to some blogger at tumblr. Johnlock is a touchy subject. I know it from my start in this forum. But it never got out of hand.

Harriet wrote:

I agree, gently.

I believe that the people you, Kenogami described, would disturb you also if it wasn't in a Johnlock context at all. They would act quite the same about Dr Who, veganism, kittens or whatever topic you can imagine.

Well said, Harriet. There are always fanatics, no matter the subject. 

hahaha, good one with the cake, tonnaree!

For the ones who are wondering... here, on this forum, I feel comfortable. That's why I write here. I feel like everyone can enjoy the show, and have an opinon about it. 

@ Liberty, I think we are somewhere on the same wavelength (I don't know if that expression is used in english, we have a similar way of thinking, at least about this show)

What I meen when I say that I'm ok with the fact that John and Sherlock could end up together, it's because I'm not homophobe. It would not change the way I see Sherlock or John if one of them was gay, or both of them, if they ended together or not. I don't see the big deal with a character (or real people) prefering man or woman (or both, or none).

The part with I'm not ok with, is hard to explain and I hope everyone will understand. If you don't, ask.
All right let's try. I'm not ok with them ending up together because of how big (and politicised) has become this whole Johnlock/queerbaiting/whatever-you-want thing. How it has become a pressure on the writers. Like they have to come up with the right ending or it will be a riot. How everyone say they are lying, in interviews. Honnestly, we are in 2014. I totally understand that there is still homophobia all around the world. But I don't understand why the autors would have to hide that they think Sherlock and John could end up together. Why it would be such a big endgame. Why it would be so revolutionnary. Why this story, in particuliar (if Sherlock and John end up together) would be such an advancement for the LGBT cause.
I think that Mark Gatiss and Steven Moffat are wonderful writers, and they could write a whole original serie about that. They don't have to use the excuse of using the work of someone else (like adapting Sherlock Holmes) to make this message pass or to let the BBC air their work.
I think that the way they started the show, and by what they (and the actors) have said about the show, if they put Sherlock and John as a couple in the end, they would reinforce one of the reasons there is homophobia. I will try to explain (and I could be wrong about that, but that's what I feel)

Let's start with assumptions about what we know about the show. First, John is described as straight and is considering himself as straight. And Sherlock, we don't know...  but what if:
1. John is in reality gay and he convince himself that he is straight or he will discover that he is gay. Sherlock, is straight. It would be wonderful for John. But in a way it dosen't really fit or isn't really credible because his own sister is lesbian. And in the show, John dosen't seems to have a problem with homosexuality. Does someone can only be homophobe with himself? Like I'm ok with homosexuality, it's totally normal, blah blah blah, as long as I'm not... ?!? I don't know, maybe.
2. John is gay, Sherlock too. they end up together. Happy ending, everyone except the homophobes are happy. But still, can John be only homophobe with himself?! They don't end up together. Happy ending, everyone is happy, except the people that as taken the series too seriously, too personnal... they feel betrayed. The creators are just a bunch of homophobe... wait... What is the point of John discovering he is gay?!?
3. John is straight, Sherlock is straight. They don't end up together. Happy ending, everyone is happy, except the people that as taken the series too seriously, too personnal... they feel betrayed. The creators are just a bunch of homophobes...
4. John is straight, Sherlock is gay. they don't end up together, but they have an extraordinary friendship... Happy ending, everyone is happy, except the people that as taken the series too seriously, too personnal... they feel betrayed. The creators are just a bunch of homophobes...
5. The last point... John is straight, Sherlock is gay... but their friendship is not enough... John is so in adoration of Sherlock that he become gay because he realise he can't live without Sherlock. That, is exactly why there is still homophobia... and that we can call it homophobia. Because technically a phobia is an irrationnal fear. A lot of what we call homophobia is in fact disgust (an irrationnal disgust) but not fear. The fear is, for the homophobes, that in some way, if they have a friendship (or something else, like just colleages) with an homosexual person, the homosexual person will necessarly hit on them. And they will magically become gay because they care about that person but fot them homosexuality is an abberation, it is wrong. Like, if homosexuality is like a cold. Someone cough on you, you get a cold. An homosexual touch you (in your heart),you become homosexual.
That point is why a part of me is against John and Sherlock as a couple in the end. Because If you want the people to be more open minded, to accept more the LGBT, don't use the exact message, or reason why there is still homophobia, it's counterproductive. Because the homophobes will still think that if you are friend with an homosexual person, you will become gay because John was straight at the beginning...
As I said, I can be wrong. But I don't feel they  have been ambigous on John sexuality. Or that John is questionning his sexuality at all. I know that some people will discover later in their life that they are homosexual. But if this was the intention of the creators, they sarted really wrong. You don't wake up one morning and realise you are gay. You question yourself. Even more if you were sure of being straight. And if John is questionning himself, we should see that. We should already have seen that. Or we will see it at the beginning of S4. But it would feel wrong, because of what is happenng with Mary. (If your life is f***ed up by a woman, become gay... that's the answer!!!) (sarcasm)

Other point. For me at least. If they end up together. It would mean, in a way, that it is impossible for two men to have a strong friendship as John and Sherlock are having now. Because in our society, only women can have that kind of friendship, without being questionned on their sexuality. Men who has a strong frienship, who are really caring for each other, can't be straight, they should be gay... because a strong friendship is so typically feminine. And in my opinion that's the point of the show. Men can have a strong friendship without being gay. Or can be friend with a gay person (if Sherlock is gay and John is not) and still have that strong and particuliar friendship... witch dosen't mean he will "become"gay. In my opinion, the character in the show, always mistakening them for a couple, thinking they are gay, is not gay bashing, they represent the society in general. How we would mistaken two guys in their 30, who have that kind of friendship for gays. So I don't think that the show is queerbaithing or homophobe or gay bashing... but it is a really big critic of our society, and how, even if we says we are open minded, we are still full of prejudices. The prejudice that if a man display a comportement that we classifiy as feminine (a strong friendship, with intimacy) it because they are not "manly enough", so they are gay (because it is well known, gays are men that are not manly enough...) (sarcasm).  If finally I'm wrong, and Sherlock and John end up together, I would still be happy with the show. But, I would feel that we are, as a society, open minded enough for accepting gays, we are becoming good at that, we are evolging. But we are not open minded enough to accept men with sentiments for other men. They have to be gay...

Oh God I'm writhing a novel!!! As I said before would like to write a meta on a non-johnlock point of view, episode by episode. I don't have a lot of time to work on that (but I take nearly 2 hours to write this answer on this blog... meh) So for episode one do you have a good Johnlock "proof" meta that i could start with, or points that I could start with.  And I would like to post it on this forum, since I don't have a tumblr/blog/other, if all of you wants to read it and review it.

Finally, like some have said, my last post was on what Martin had answered in interview, and my opinion.

I'm not entirely sure how much weight we should give to an unaired pilot.
In my view,aired episodes win handsdown.

Kenogami wrote:

 
Other point. For me at least. If they end up together. It would mean, in a way, that it is impossible for two men to have a strong friendship as John and Sherlock are having now. Because in our society, only women can have that kind of friendship, without being questionned on their sexuality.

Oh, but they can´t! My cousin shared a flat with her best friend, they went to the same church and liked to spend time with each other - and literally eeeveryone believed they were in a lesbian relationship. Everyone saw them kiss (when they were actually leaning towards each other to talk over noise) or hold hands (when they were just standing close). People see what they like to see. They see, observe, and sometimes draw the wrong conclusions. When I visited them they always told me how unhappy this situation made them, people actually got angry at them for "denying" what so obviously was true. So that´s a little personal background on why I don´t like to draw conclusions about people´s relationships based on "proofs" like facial expressions, looks, or how comfortable they are with each other physically.
 

Last edited by Zatoichi (September 5, 2014 4:41 pm)

Kenogami wrote:

.

Same thing: your little boy prefers to play with Barbie and "Mom and Dad", or cooking... gay! But if he is playing with He-man, and trucks, and guns ... that's a man... so not gay. And technically He-man is a nearly naked muscular man... I don't understand why it is "gayer " for la little boy to play with Barbie than He-man, if you know what I means...

 

I really do not see any connection between this and the show. And I think not every parent would categorise their children like that. My son wore his hair very long for years, was teased but refused to have it cut. I was fine with it and never once thought he would be gay just because of that.

And we are still talking about a show in which two professional men in their thirties, early forties live together, not two students who just left school. This is a difference. Honestly, if I had neighbours - no matter if men or women - living together at that age I would they might be a couple. This is no prejudice, this is a permissible thought. And of course I would be absolutely okay with it.