BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Violence at the reunion

SolarSystem · September 3, 2014 4:56 am

I think the reunion went wrong on various levels. Those two men have been living in two completely different worlds for two years, and I'm not even talking about their emotional state here. But if you take that into account as well... the reunion probably had to be a desaster.
tonnaree, I completely agree with you: I can totally understand John's reaction. Sherlock waltzes in there as if nothing had happened, as if those two years didn't count at all and expects John to 'take him back', no questions asked. And don't get me wrong, I understand Sherlock here, as well. He is not good with these sort of things and completely misjudges the whole situation. When he says "John will be delighted" to Mycroft, that really says it all. Sherlock has no clue at all about what those two years did to John.
And yes, some people say that John needs a better therapist and all that, and I certainly don't think that you can solve anything by beating other people up. But in this case... John gave in to his emotions and I can't blame him. And I can't blame Sherlock, either. Both of them are totally helpless here. I think it just had to happen like this.

Last edited by SolarSystem (September 3, 2014 4:57 am)

SolarSystem · September 3, 2014 5:04 am

SusiGo wrote:
Just an aside - yesterday I was watching "Torchwood" and heard these words which I know from so many Sherlock fanfics.
"It's not men, it's just him. It's only him."
Such things happen.

Ha. When I watched that episode and came across that quote I immediately had to jot it down, as well. I think I even posted it here somewhere. It's so very telling.

besleybean · September 3, 2014 5:40 am

Getting back to the subject..
I still hate the societal acceptance of violence.
But I do accept the team thinks it makes good TV.
I also accept it is in keeping with John's character.
But I don't have to like it,
However I repeat, it was very well done, the Reunion thing...

A lovely light · September 3, 2014 6:08 am

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
A lovely light wrote:
He is right about jumping in that moment. But he isn't right to keep John in the dark for two years, also he is not right about the way he choose to do the reunion - he so should have give more thought about it, about how and where he would meet John and explain him ....
I think Sherlock didn't tell John, because John was being watched. It would have put John's life in dnager.

There are danger and danger out there. Sometimes the danger and demons in your head are the most dangerous ones. You cannot go anyway from them, you cannot hide . They are there to torture you every second.

Look, i understand very well what is going on with Sherlock and how hard is for him that moment, that is typical for his character to misjudge, but not to say that he was in right to treat John like he did. As a watcher i can think a lot of attenuating circumstances for Sherlock, and i do. But so do i with John. The reunion scene is not John's fault , his misunderstanding is called not from his failure as human being.

Sherlock approached badly the reunion from the begining, so i cannot understand why the blame is on John for not coping with it. That is all.

SolarSystem · September 3, 2014 6:16 am

A lovely light wrote:
The reunion scene is not John's fault , his misunderstanding is called not from his failure as human being.

In my opinion the outcome of the reunion is not anybody's fault, neither John's nor Sherlock's. They both are damaged goods, they both had to live through two years we don't know all that much about - but I guess it's safe to say that it's been difficult and painful for both of them. So the reunion... just sort of happened this way. They both were overstrained and unable to cope with it.
And although I certainly don't approve of violence, I am glad that we saw how difficult this was for them. I definitely prefer this over a sickly-sweet It's-good-to-have-you-back-scene.

Last edited by SolarSystem (September 3, 2014 6:17 am)

A lovely light · September 3, 2014 6:20 am

SolarSystem wrote:
A lovely light wrote:
The reunion scene is not John's fault , his misunderstanding is called not from his failure as human being.
In my opinion the outcome of the reunion is not anybody's fault, neither John's nor Sherlock's. They both are damaged goods, they both had to live through two years we don't know all that much about - but I guess it's safe to say that it's been difficult and painful for both of them. So the reunion... just sort of happened this way. They both were overstrained and unable to cope with it.
And although I certainly don't approve of violence, I am glad that we saw how difficult this was for them. I definitely prefer this over a sickly-sweet It's-good-to-have-you-back-scene.

Exactly.

SusiGo · September 3, 2014 6:30 am

Very good point, Solar.

Zatoichi · September 3, 2014 6:54 am

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
I'm having a lot of difficulty with the idea that someone being a know it all, someone being arrogant, that that's a good reason to want them taken down. I find that idea rather-- well, it's reflective of the Reality TV world we live in, where we pick sides based on how "nice" someone is, versus how "mean" or arrogant someone is, and wait for the mean person to Fall. We delight in it. And, really-- wasn't that what TRF was about? Sherlock rose in the eyes of the press, he caught the attention of Moriarty, but he wasn't humble enough, he wasn't nice enough. Therefore, he had to Fall. He lost everything. So the moral of the story is, be nice, be normal, be polite, be humble. Otherwise, you will be taken down. But if you're "nice", people will forgive you *anything*.

That really strikes a chord with me, you describe exactly how I feel, not just about TRF but also about S3. Complete S3 feels like "a fall" for me, where people delight in taking Sherlock down, and it really bothers me.

I could get really worked up about this and realize I´m being irrational about it, so I´d better stop now ;P. Still I had to quote it as I´m happy someone else is feeling this way..

Back to topic I think Solar found the perfect words for it.. being the men they are there was no way the reunion could have gone smooth.

mrshouse · September 3, 2014 6:56 am

Well, I think a sticky good-to-have-you-back-scene would not have been in character for both of them. But once would have been sufficient and the a bit of good-to-have-you-back...

SusiGo · September 3, 2014 7:11 am

I think it was an interesting development to see Sherlock subjected to so much violence and contempt in series 3. For me it is part of the overall story arc. A hero who is experiencing highs and lows and has to hit rock bottom to build himself up again and become in some ways a new man. I am not happy with John going for quite that much violence in TEH but it fits in the pattern of this series which is told mainly from Sherlock's POV and in which we get a lot of insight into his inner life. I am sure that he will rise from all this, maybe in series 4, maybe even later and become someone who manages to cope with both sides of his being - the emotional and the cerebral one.

Liberty · September 3, 2014 7:27 am

It probably was well done, and I think it does serve several purposes very well. And I take the point earlier about it being what people wanted, whether that came from fan fiction or not.

I do believe Sherlock thought John would be at risk if he contacted him. It wasn't just about giving away the secret (after all, he told his parents, who then didn't come to the funeral). The people he pointedly didn't tell, were the three people who were most at risk.   I think he was continuing to protect them. It's clear at the reunion that he'd very much wanted to be in touch with John.

I've got to say, that John could have reached out to some of the other people who were grieving as well - Mrs Hudson, LeStrade, even Mycroft, as far as he knew.    He chose to withdraw, be "alone", and reject everything from his life with Sherlock .. but it maybe makes the reunion more painful for him. I think that's in character and understandable, but it's not Sherlock's fault.

Anyway, I do think Sherlock was in the right in what he did regarding TRF - so completely in the right. The only thing he could be faulted on is how he approached John. But if John was so angry about it, I think anything would have set him off. He doesn't appreciate Sherlock making a joke, but then once that's over, he still keeps hitting him.   I have a feeling that he'd have hit Sherlock however he'd approached him. The trouble is that they haven't really established any way to communicate about the big things without making a joke out of it. That's what they'd done up to that point, both of them.   Perhaps Mycroft should have approached John first, although John might have ended up hitting Mycroft instead.

The worst Sherlock does is maybe approaching John the wrong way, but even then, he chooses a way that he thinks would be acceptable to John. It's a misjugdment at most, there's no malice there at all, nothing that needs punishment. If corporal punishment is ever appropriate outside of consenting adults anyway. I'm fine with it being in the show for our enjoyment and titillation (still trying to get "spanking Sherlock" out of my head, thank you!), as long as it's not considered an OK way to treat people in real life. And I accept that the show does do awful things to Sherlock and makes it attractive - humiliation comes up a lot in the show and they show him dirty and drugged, or in pain and near collapsing, and still make him beautiful. This is definitely a thing, and I suppose John's violence is actually a mild example of how far they will go to bring Sherlock down for our viewing pleasure.

Maybe it's more disturbing because John and Molly are possible "ships" as well.   I wouldn't like to see a relationship when somebody gets hit if they inadvertantly do the wrong thing.   However Sherlock made John and Molly feel, he didn't do anything deliberately to hurt them.   It's funny, I find the John scene much more disturbing (because it looks so like domestic violence), but the Molly scene as worse - she doesn't have John's excuses.

Zatoichi · September 3, 2014 7:38 am

SusiGo wrote:
I think it was an interesting development to see Sherlock subjected to so much violence and contempt in series 3. For me it is part of the overall story arc. A hero who is experiencing highs and lows and has to hit rock bottom to build himself up again and become in some ways a new man. I am not happy with John going for quite that much violence in TEH but it fits in the pattern of this series which is told mainly from Sherlock's POV and in which we get a lot of insight into his inner life. I am sure that he will rise from all this, maybe in series 4, maybe even later and become someone who manages to cope with both sides of his being - the emotional and the cerebral one.

I love this... It would surely be the best outcome. Some things Mark said in an interview make me fear that "I hope you learnt your lesson" is supposed to mean that Sherlock learned that indeed being emotionally invested is something to avoid at all costs - but as I don´t think they´ll go back but develop their characters I have hopes that indeed S3 just was the "crisis" part of an epos that results in the hero maturing and developing his full potential. (I hope it doesn´t turn out to be a Greek tragedy.. )

SolarSystem · September 3, 2014 7:46 am

mrshouse wrote:
Well, I think a sticky good-to-have-you-back-scene would not have been in character for both of them. But once would have been sufficient and the a bit of good-to-have-you-back...

I understand, but let me just say: It's been two years. Two years during which John thought that Sherlock was dead. Dead. Those two years must have been torture for Sherlock as well, but at least he knew that John was still alive. I understand completely that it took John a little longer than just, let's say, half an hour to come to terms with the fact that Sherlock was still alive.
We get the good-to-have-you-back-feeling at the very end of the episode, and in terms of storytelling I really love that it takes an entire episode for the boys to be really reunited. John is beaming with pride when he's waiting for Sherlock in front of his bedroom... what a great moment! And I think it's such a great moment because it took them 90 minutes to get there.

mrshouse · September 3, 2014 7:49 am

You're probably right but let me just say: I have the feeling that the good-to-have-you-back-feeling is all but gone again in HLV. Which makes me going really mad. If you look at the whole series they were never really done with their seperation, we just get to take a little breath in TSoT.

mrshouse · September 3, 2014 7:51 am

@zatoichi,which interview was that? Could you post a link?

Zatoichi · September 3, 2014 7:59 am

Liberty wrote:
And I accept that the show does do awful things to Sherlock and makes it attractive - humiliation comes up a lot in the show and they show him dirty and drugged, or in pain and near collapsing, and still make him beautiful. This is definitely a thing, and I suppose John's violence is actually a mild example of how far they will go to bring Sherlock down for our viewing pleasure.

I´m still struggling with accepting this.. It´s just a personal thing, because I find very little pleasure in watching him shattered, humiliated and devastated. Struggling and shaken by his emotions like in S2 was just the right amount of drama for me, S3 left me feeling confused and emotionally drained (and as a result a little angry and less emotionally invested in the show). But I seem to be in the minority, many people got really hooked after S3 so it seems to be the right thing to do to make the show successful .

@mrshouse: Sorry, I don´t remember which interview it was or how the exact words were, and a quick Google search didn´t bring any results either.. i hope I got it wrong anyway!

mrshouse · September 3, 2014 8:09 am

Zatoichi wrote:
I´m still struggling with accepting this.. It´s just a personal thing, because I find very little pleasure in watching him shattered, humiliated and devastated. Struggling and shaken by his emotions like in S2 was just the right amount of drama for me, S3 left me feeling confused and emotionally drained (and as a result a little angry and less emotionally invested in the show). But I seem to be in the minority, many people got really hooked after S3 so it seems to be the right thing to do to make the show successful

Agree 100%!

SolarSystem · September 3, 2014 8:09 am

mrshouse wrote:
You're probably right but let me just say: I have the feeling that the good-to-have-you-back-feeling is all but gone again in HLV. Which makes me going really mad. If you look at the whole series they were never really done with their seperation, we just get to take a little breath in TSoT.

Oh, I absolutely agree with you - but that's a different story, isn't it? That feeling would also have been gone in HLV if the reunion had been done after the first ten minutes of TEH.
And yes, it is sad. I would say that we really need to get back to that reunion aspect in S4, because after HLV it's still not how it should be between the boys. But again, in terms of storytelling that might not even be a bad thing... because there are things out there that need to be dealt with, and especially emotional things. So it's frustrating as well as exciting, if you ask me.

SusiGo · September 3, 2014 8:31 am

Yes, and I really hope for a moment in series 4 when John can finally speak about his feelings. Not a long let-us-sit-on-the-floor-and-drink-tea-and-express-our-feelings discussion, this is not what they (or most men) do but a situation in which he can express his feelings without kicking chairs or tackling Sherlock to the floor. We had a bit of that in the hallway at the end of TEH but that was before HLV. And there are many unresolved things between Sherlock and John.

Last edited by SusiGo (September 3, 2014 8:32 am)

Harriet · September 3, 2014 8:52 am

La Jolie wrote:
RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
Aha. Sherlock ASKS to be hit.
Yes, I think he does.

That's called victim blaming
Yes, and we surely all agree that it is terrible, twisted and wrong whenever something like that happens in real life domestic violence.

But going back to the fictional story that we're talking about, with characters whose personalities and emotions are arguably somewhat larger than life and intended to be taken with a grain of salt -

John can certainly do wrong. His anger and aggressive tendencies have me slightly worried, too. And of course he's wrong in hitting Sherlock. Legally it's a clear case of assault without any extenuating circumstances, if Sherlock ever considered pressing charges against him.

But I think the reason why some of us do find a funny and/or a sexy element in it (sexy on Sherlock's part, not on John's), you have to look at the reason *why* John feels a need for punishing Sherlock. It's not just for causing non-descript emotional pain for non-descript reasons. It would never have been funny and/or sexy if Sherlock's mistake had been unintentional or due to ignorance, fear, or any other sort of weakness. So for us people who didn't mind the scene, it's not generally OK to hit people (even in fiction) just because they've made any kind of mistake for any reason. You really have to look at why the victim makes the mistake.

If you look at the reason for Sherlock's mistake - and I define his mistake not as the fact of the Fall and the deception that went with it, but as his bad way of handling the reunion - , you will find arrogance, selfishness, idiocentrism and general disregard for John's feelings and needs, in short, everything you've ever loved to hate about Sherlock's personality and the way it shapes his relationship with John. That's what earns him his punishment. Not the mistake as such but the reason why he made it.

Now, what's the feeling you get when someone is being very annoyingly arrogant all the time? When someone keeps making you feel stupid, keeps not taking you seriously, disregards your feelings and tries to make himself feel better at your expense? You want to take him down a peg or two. You want to
assert yourself, you want to be the one on top for once, you want that arrogant brat to feel what it's like to be someone else's punch-ball. So, when your verbal skills fail you, you hit him. Because that shuts him up and turns the tables very quickly and efficiently.

There's nothing interesting or satisfying (let alone attractive) in a weak person being humiliated. But it becomes very interesting and possibly attractive if the person at the receiving end isn't used to that sort of thing at all, when he's used to being on top of the world all the time with everyone deferring to him.

It's the extreme contrast of arrogance and humiliation that makes the scene enjoyable to me. Of pride coming before the fall, if you want to put it poetically.
...

I am surprised that nobody as far as I noticed reacted to your post. I find it excellent voice of reason.
But then, it should perhaps leave nothing to add.