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August 30, 2014 9:23 pm  #1721


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Probably he told that Oscar Wilde that night 


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

August 30, 2014 9:25 pm  #1722


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I can only imagine Oscar charmed the socks off Arthur...I would have been spell biound.


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August 30, 2014 9:27 pm  #1723


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

It seems Wilde was not the only homosexual man for whom ACD showed sympathy:
 
"Two years later, Conan Doyle's acute sense of justice was awakened again and made him rise to the defense of Sir Roger Casement, an Irish diplomat accused of being "the foulest traitor who ever drew breath." Conan Doyle had known and liked the diplomat several years before, as the man had alerted him to awful injustices committed against blacks in the Congo. The author had even based the character of Lord John Roxton in The Lost World on Casement. Now, the "traitor" was found guilty of having tried to get Germany's support for the Irish independence movement.

Conan Doyle almost succeeded in sparing the convicted man's life, on grounds of insanity, had it not been for the discovery of Casement's diary. It chronicled in detail his homosexuality, which at the time was also a criminal offense. Conan Doyle's feelings about homosexuality were more liberal than the norm, which may have been the reason why, he later was not elevated to sit in the House of Lords."

Source: http://www.sherlockholmesonline.org/biography/biography13.htm


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

August 30, 2014 9:29 pm  #1724


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Yes again, I read all about this in the Doyle biography.
ACD had a keen sense of justice, regardless of the victim's sexuality.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

August 30, 2014 9:31 pm  #1725


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Which means he didn't find homosexuality that detestable.


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

August 30, 2014 9:35 pm  #1726


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Exactly. Because for many British patriots Casement's involvement in the Irish republican movement and the 1916 Easter Rising must have been an appalling instance of treason. And then in addition he was a homosexual ... not exactly the man one would choose to defend if you felt no real sympathy for him.


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

August 30, 2014 9:36 pm  #1727


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

On the contrary , he did.
But he still had a keen sense of justice.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

August 30, 2014 9:37 pm  #1728


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

If you are able to say "justice is more important than sexual orientation", then sexual orientation is of lesser meaning to you.


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

August 30, 2014 9:45 pm  #1729


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I take what the man actually said in his diary.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

August 30, 2014 9:48 pm  #1730


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Fine. The easiest way for sure.


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

August 30, 2014 11:16 pm  #1731


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

ACD viewing homosexuals as sick...was very mild for the timeframe. I actually think his staunch defence of them during his lifetime was very brave and contraversial considering the newspapers reports of the Wilde trial and the moralistic fanatism and hypocrasy of the era.

I made a thread here years ago entitled....when ACD met Oscar Wilde...commenting on this and other strange Wilde Doyle coincidences talked about in the Stephen Fry documentary.

I don't think Doyle would mind at all about the Johnlockers povs.

 

August 31, 2014 7:19 am  #1732


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I'd forgotten you'd put a thread on here.
But I loved the Fry documentary.
Well of course we'll never know Victorian ACD's views on the modern world, though yes, he was ahead of his time.
But I disagree with you on that point.
I mean for at the time.
Had he been alive now and maybe writing the stories now,,,I don't know.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

September 1, 2014 2:16 pm  #1733


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

There has been some discussion about Martin's latest interview in the Sunday Times (which I personally find quite insulting to him, but anyway). He mentions people turning Johnlock into a political agenda and does not seem very impressed with that. Here is a quote:

"What started as a bit of fun — a slightly irreverent, sly, mocking thing — has now turned into, for some people, if you don’t think they’re gay, then you’re denying they’re gay and you are somehow homophobic. I mean genuinely — it’s that strong. It’s very odd, the fact that it has become a po-faced, political thing.”

This is the same man who in 2011 said: 

“I know [creators] Steven [Moffat] and Mark [Gatiss] primarily wanted the show to be about that relationship as much, if not more, than anything else. 

[It’s about the relationship] and how it develops and how it changes and the things that wind each other up, the things that they genuinely sort of love about each other as well. 

It’s the gayest story in the history of television… People certainly run with that, which I’m quite happy with! 

But we all saw it as a love story. Not just a love story, but those two people who do love each other — a slightly dysfunctional relationship, sometimes, but a relationship that works. They get results.”

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/tv/s129/sherlock/news/a320978/martin-freeman-sherlock-is-gayest-story-ever.html#~oOCqJcGrhQONtv

So I really wonder what has changed in these three years. Not the things we see on the screen, that is for sure. 
I think that for people who take this very personal, such statements as the above may be deeply disappointing. They may have hoped for representation, for a really big thing like a Sherlock Holmes adaptation making this step (and I still think it is there on the screen for everyone to see but this is not what this post is about). To read such a statement must be like a slap in the face for those that are personally concerned.  
Is it a love story or some irreverent mockery? Is it gay or is it not? 

Last edited by SusiGo (September 1, 2014 2:18 pm)


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

September 1, 2014 2:31 pm  #1734


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Susi, i have just put the article at the MF thread (and i rant a little, just a little in few words, really, about how insulting i find it). I think what Martin means is the dimmension of the discussion and not that he is against it. And also that he thinks the discussion gets very "you are on my side of thinking or you are my enemy" kind. Which I saw very oft on tumblr. 

I don't think that he sees how important can be for some people such representation, exactly because he is in the middle of it and has not enogh distance to the project to have an objective look about how big and important Sherlock became for so many people. Perhaps he cannot see a film like Sherlock to be such pivotal for the representation of the LGBT community just because he is humble and sees Sherlock as a normal series on the entertainment side, not a battle for the rights film and it makes him uneasy to give an out of the proportions impression. 

 

September 1, 2014 3:05 pm  #1735


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Thank you for posting it. 
I absolutely agree with what you say. I just feel that Martin may be a bit inconsiderate with what he said then and now. If I was gay and I big Sherlock fan and read what he said in 2011 I probably would have been over the moon. And disappointed about his recent words. 
Of course it may have been blown out of proportion by some people. On the other hand I can imagine how important it can become to see your personal concerns represented in such an enormously popular show.  


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

September 1, 2014 3:13 pm  #1736


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Do you think that he rereads what he has said in 2011? from that moment till now he had given tons of other interviews, it may be that he didn't remember that answer anymore, it can be that it depends also on which mood he is when he gives an answer. If he was already pissed off by the journalist, which is very possible, he might get harsher than normally -  also this question about that part of the fandom come really to often, as this is the only aspect about Sherlock who matters anymore. 

 

September 1, 2014 3:16 pm  #1737


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Yes, I think they should not mention it over and over again. And the interviews as a whole is terrible and insulting. In 2011 Martin said those words full of euphoria after having won a BAFTA. He was not pissed and had no reason not to tell the truth. I just think it is quite a big thing to say you are doing "the gayest show on earth" and going on about the love story between the two main characters. Such things stay in people's minds. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

September 1, 2014 3:48 pm  #1738


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Martin likes his little jokes.

Last edited by besleybean (September 1, 2014 3:49 pm)


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

September 1, 2014 3:57 pm  #1739


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I take what the man actually said in his interview 

Last edited by Harriet (September 1, 2014 3:57 pm)


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

September 1, 2014 4:06 pm  #1740


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I just kept up reading and this one made me think a lot. I have an uneasy feeling that Martin somehow doesn't feel comfortable about the topic of johnlock at all. And I have a feeling, that things might get mixed up in his (or his and Amandas) view of it. I have the feeling that since the whole Mary Morstan business started from planning, writing, casting and then -alas- insulting Amanda privately and purposely he feels very supportive. Which is highly understandable in every facet. She's his Mrs and mother of their children after all. But it mingles with the show here, which feels wrong for me. Not the last reason why I would have preferred not for a real life couple to play here.
In 2011 he felt much more at ease obviously.


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Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

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