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August 31, 2014 4:14 pm  #81


Re: The tarmac scene, what do you think?

Liberty wrote:

The laptop does feel like a setup.

It does indeed. Remember this exchange:

"Mikey is this your laptop?"
"Upon which depends the security of the free world, yes, and you've got potatoes on it!"
"Well, you shouldn’t leave it lying around if it’s so important."

Why does he just leave it lying around? And what's with Sherlock's surreptious glance up during this exchange?

Very suspicious indeed...

Mary


John: That's clever. So you scratch their backs and...
Sherlock: Yes. And then disinfect myself.
 

August 31, 2014 4:19 pm  #82


Re: The tarmac scene, what do you think?

The only slight question I have is: could they really only find Appledore by the laptop tracker?


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August 31, 2014 4:25 pm  #83


Re: The tarmac scene, what do you think?

maryagrawatson wrote:

Liberty wrote:

The laptop does feel like a setup.

It does indeed. Remember this exchange:

"Mikey is this your laptop?"
"Upon which depends the security of the free world, yes, and you've got potatoes on it!"
"Well, you shouldn’t leave it lying around if it’s so important."

Why does he just leave it lying around? And what's with Sherlock's surreptious glance up during this exchange?

Very suspicious indeed...

Mary

I try to believe that Mycroft has a bit of trust left for Sherlock, so wouldn't suspect that sherlock just sells out all this secrets. He just basically tells Sherlock in the same scene that he really loves him.
It depends on how much Sherlock really is loyal to Mycrot, no? But I think Sherlock is up for the game, and he has no intention to ever let Magnusson really GET to the contents of Mycrofts laptop, he's just using it as a tool. That's how the scene reads to me.
But it is really bizarre - Mycroft letting government stuff lying round on his parents table as if he doesn't care (when he is very secret and fussing about his stuff usually), and Sherlock drugging his own parents and brother and friends wife...
Even if Mycroft was in on Sherlocks plan, he would object to being drugged, wouldn't he... cannot really see that as deliberate.
 


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"It is what it is."

 

August 31, 2014 5:12 pm  #84


Re: The tarmac scene, what do you think?

Yes, I don't think Sherlock ever had any intention of "selling" Mycroft, and I think Mycroft would have trusted him not to do that.  It seems as if Magnusson guessed Sherlock's plan correctly (it would give the government legal access to Magnusson's vaults, and he'd be taken out of the picture.  Maybe Sherlock hoped to get Mary's files before Mycroft arrived, or maybe he thought they wouldn't dangerous as long as Magnusson didn't have them).  It would make sense for Mycroft to be in on a plan like that, or perhaps to trust Sherlock to find a way to do it without giving him the details.

Maybe the laptop scene at their parents' house is just a very unsubtle setup for audience?  But it could be that Mycroft is giving Sherlock a go-ahead, without knowing exactly what the plan is (and that it involves him being drugged).  Or perhaps there was only limited information on that laptop - enough to incriminate Magnusson, but not to risk anything. 

 

August 31, 2014 9:04 pm  #85


Re: The tarmac scene, what do you think?

Whisky wrote:

The hesitation on his part results from confusion, in my opinion. Too much to process and not enough time. He seems to be kind of in shock and a few steps behind, trying to catch up.
The handshake, for me, is a first strong new bond, a true new foundation in the friendship between them, on which the future relationship can build.

Very well said, I totally agree.




On the question whether Mycroft was in on killing Magnussen:

Whisky wrote:

Also the warnings that Mycroft gave Sherlock before felt quite honest to me.

But then I would argue that Mycroft knew exactly that telling Sherlock to keep off Magnussen would only set him on more firmly. Sherlock surely went after Magnussen with even more determination, knowing he was doing it to spite Mycroft as well. Wouldn't Mycroft exploit that fact?

BUT:

Whisky wrote:

But why then show us the scene when Mycroft sits in the helicopter, quite distressed? He seems fairly panicked that Sherlock gets shot on the spot on Appledore terrace, and he also wonders what Sherlock has done now. And there is no one else really to witness that.

That tips the scale for me. You're right actually, Whisky. I simply forgot about that (though it IS one of the most beautiful moments in HLV!).  He seems genuinely distressed. I think I have to take that theory of mine back. OK, Mycroft wasn't in on Magnussen getting shot.



As for the laptop:  

Whisky wrote:

But it is really bizarre - Mycroft letting government stuff lying round on his parents table as if he doesn't care (when he is very secret and fussing about his stuff usually), and Sherlock drugging his own parents and brother and friends wife...

I find the laptop thing really suspicious, too.

Maybe he left it lying around simply because his parents and Sherlock are the only people he really trusts.

But then he and Sherlock have a long history of cheating and out-manoeuvering each other...


I like the idea that leaving it lying around was Mycroft's go-ahead for Sherlock (whatever Sherlock was planning). That would also mean that he knew that telling Sherlock to keep off Magnussen would have the opposite effect. In that case, you could read their conversation outside the house ("your loss would break my heart") as Mycroft telling Sherlock something like "I know I can't stop you, so just be careful, and good luck". One might even assume that Mycroft was very well aware that there was "something in the punch", but drank it all the same because he trusted Sherlock to handle things well.

And why do I think that? Because they smoke together, which they only do at very critical, pivotal moments in their life (as in the Morgue in ASIB after Irene's "death"). Sherlock of course knew that there was a pivotal point coming, but if Mycroft didn't know it and wasn't supposed to know it, it would have made him very suspicious, and he would surely have commented on it. But he doesn't. He just joins in. Although he isn't entirely comfortable with the plan ("this isn't agreeing with me").

Yes, it looks very much like Mycroft knew that something was going to happen and was content to let it happen, until it went terribly wrong when Sherlock shot Magnussen (re: Mycroft's reaction in the helicopter). Yes, I can see that.

Gah, you people make my head hurt. In a good way.

Last edited by La Jolie (August 31, 2014 9:16 pm)


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September 1, 2014 10:46 am  #86


Re: The tarmac scene, what do you think?

La Jolie wrote:

I like the idea that leaving it lying around was Mycroft's go-ahead for Sherlock (whatever Sherlock was planning). That would also mean that he knew that telling Sherlock to keep off Magnussen would have the opposite effect. In that case, you could read their conversation outside the house ("your loss would break my heart") as Mycroft telling Sherlock something like "I know I can't stop you, so just be careful, and good luck". One might even assume that Mycroft was very well aware that there was "something in the punch", but drank it all the same because he trusted Sherlock to handle things well.

And why do I think that? Because they smoke together, which they only do at very critical, pivotal moments in their life (as in the Morgue in ASIB after Irene's "death"). Sherlock of course knew that there was a pivotal point coming, but if Mycroft didn't know it and wasn't supposed to know it, it would have made him very suspicious, and he would surely have commented on it. But he doesn't. He just joins in. Although he isn't entirely comfortable with the plan ("this isn't agreeing with me"). 

I'm not so sure about the smoking, although it's true... they don't seem to share a smoke except in very special circumstances (or that's what we are shown). But I also thought, maybe at home at their parents place they would slip into old behaviour and habits, and I read the scene as "god, we both hate this christmas business at home, let's escape and have a smoke which we don't usually do but here we are for once suffering the same".

I agree with you that all of Mycrofts lines are very suggestive of something big coming on. I still don't fully believe Mycroft would trust Sherlock as much to the point he lets himself be knowingly drugged while Sherlock handles Magnusson.
Can Mycroft be sure at that point that Sherlock is clean of drugs, in full possession of all his usual cleverness, and having a very good plan? I'm not sure. Sherlock seems unstable in most scenes, and Mycroft would pick up on that. Would he really trust Sherlock to be top of his game and able to handle Magnusson? Their conversations hint otherwise.
But: Sherlock does mention he considers Mycroft "under his (Magnussons) thumb", so maybe Mycroft just needed a good excuse to be out of the way and out of suspicion. He couldn't have known that Sherlocks would need to shoot Magnusson. Maybe he was playing along for alibi, keeping himself out of line, leaving the legwork once more to Sherlock.
But what irritates me again, then, is that Mycroft tells Sherlock that Magnusson isn't "a dragon for him to slay". It doesn't sound to me like hidden encouragement, but like a honest statement of fact.

This scene doesn't read very clear for me if we try to put too much interpretation into it  - for me it reads best with a Mycroft that's very much in the dark about Sherlocks plans. The lines "your loss would break my heart" and "something in the punch" might just be for the audience to enjoy Mycroft in ignorance about the stuff going on, for once. While choosing the fitting words by accident which makes for good entertainment.

I just don't know. My head starts hurting in a good way, too, now :D
 


_____________________________________________________________

"It is what it is."

 

September 1, 2014 11:02 am  #87


Re: The tarmac scene, what do you think?

Oh, your latest posts are SO interesting! I love interpretations.
And I want to re-watch that smoking scene right now. But I can't as I'm at work!
ARGH!


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Good bye, Lord Rickman of the Alan
 

September 2, 2014 11:56 am  #88


Re: The tarmac scene, what do you think?

Whisky wrote:

But what irritates me again, then, is that Mycroft tells Sherlock that Magnusson isn't "a dragon for him to slay". It doesn't sound to me like hidden encouragement, but like a honest statement of fact.

 

I wouldn´t red too much into Mycroft´s "dragon" statement - since it´s obviously just a nice reference to this rather humorous passage from the original short story "The Adventure of Charles Augustus Milverton", the scene where John Watson and Sherlock broke into the blackmailer´s office:

I nodded, and stood by the door. My first feeling of fear had passed away, and I thrilled now with a keener zest than I had ever enjoyed when we were the defenders of the law instead of its defiers. The high object of our mission, the consciousness that it was unselfish and chivalrous, the villainous character of our opponent, all added to the sporting interest of the adventure. Far from feeling guilty, I rejoiced and exulted in our dangers. With a glow of admiration I watched Holmes unrolling his case of instruments and choosing his tool with the calm, scientific accuracy of a surgeon who performs a delicate operation. I knew that the opening of safes was a particular hobby with him, and I understood the joy which it gave him to be confronted with this green and gold monster, the dragon which held in its maw the reputations of many fair ladies.

Romantic and gifted with a rich imagination, it´s originaly Dr. Watson who describes the blackmailer´s vaults as a dragon and himself and Sherlock as a pair of knith-errands who want to save a fair lady from the clutches of a monster (cute!). Since in BBC Sherlock there are no vaults, the meaning was trasferred to Magnussen himself and now it´s Mycroft who warns Sherlock that he is no knight able to take on that monster.


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

September 5, 2014 10:35 pm  #89


Re: The tarmac scene, what do you think?

I always thought the dragon thing was a Hobbit reference but this is even better. But I don't find it plausible that Mycroft knew about the plan. I think he might have suspected that Sherlock was up to no good. 
But bringing the laptop doesn't make sense. Maybe there was nothing on it. 

 

January 19, 2015 9:27 pm  #90


Re: The tarmac scene, what do you think?

I need to get this off my chest.

I found the Tarmac scene disappointing.

I know a lot of you guys love the scene, but from the very first time I saw it, I was disappointed. This is, from their point of view, probably the very last time they will see each other. Sherlock will most probably be dead in six months time, and they both know it. 

And what do they say? Sherlock cracks bad jokes, and John says things like "I can't think of a single thing to say" and "We are not naming our daughter after you" (a remark I found very cold and unnessesary considering the circumstances).

And how do they end this meaningless conversation? By shaking hands, standing far apart, like they were business associates. I mean, even if we take Johnlock out of the equation, these guys are supposed to be the best of friends. Even Mary gives Sherlock a hug. If you look at how they talk to each other and the shaking of hands, you would think these guys hardly know each other.

I know of course there is more going on under the surface. You see it in their eyes. But I still think it is way, way too understated. I was not expecting tears and a declaration of undying love, fluff and unicorns jumping over rainbows. But there is nothing.

So, no, this scene gives me very little, to be honest. 

 


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Team Hudders!
 
 

January 19, 2015 9:39 pm  #91


Re: The tarmac scene, what do you think?

I think reading some of the ideas given here might help finding insights.


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

January 19, 2015 9:42 pm  #92


Re: The tarmac scene, what do you think?

I haven't read the thread yet, I needed to get it off my chest before reading anyone else's opinion on it. 


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"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 

January 19, 2015 9:43 pm  #93


Re: The tarmac scene, what do you think?

Yes, I can see that ...


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

January 19, 2015 10:00 pm  #94


Re: The tarmac scene, what do you think?

I've read the thread now, and I still feel the same about it. It is a good point about John feeling overwhelmed and not ready to show emotions, but on a different note that doesn't make much sense at all. During Sherlock's speech, John actually gets up and give him a warm hug, in front of everybody. And before the jump in TRF, John is not afraid to tell Sherlock what he thinks about him, and that is in a highly stressful situation. So we know that John can both show and speak about what he feels towards Sherlock, both in a time of peace and in a time of great stress.

So what do we get from John in this situation? "We are not naming our daughter after you". Not even trying to say anything, not a hug. Nothing.

To me, this tells me that they are more distant to each other here than what they were in TRF. And I think that is what is the most painful thing for me to see in that scene.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 

January 19, 2015 10:10 pm  #95


Re: The tarmac scene, what do you think?

But remember what had happened before - Sherlock being shot, Mary being revealed as a killer, Sherlock shooting Magnussen. I think we may assume that John who can never really talk about his feelings is insecure and shocked and does not really know what to say. Not in spite of but because of the situation being so hopeless and sad. 

 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

January 19, 2015 10:18 pm  #96


Re: The tarmac scene, what do you think?

I see what you mean, but it doesn't fit with what we've seen of him so far. He can talk about his feelings during high stress when Sherlock is about to (he believes) commit sucidide. He has endured a LOT of stressful situations with Sherlock, and takes it all in stride. In TEH, the tube scene, three minutes after believing he is about to die, he has shrugged it off. Same with the experiment in THoB. 

And this scene takes place several months after Sherlock got shot and Mary's past was revelead, and probably several days after Sherlock shot Magnussen. It makes no sense that John should still be so overwhelmed by those things still when he has shrugged everything else off within minutes. Not to the point we see in this scene.


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"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 

January 19, 2015 10:34 pm  #97


Re: The tarmac scene, what do you think?

But John has no idea that the mission is a death sentence. He undoubtedly can assume that he won't be seeing Sherlock often, but he surely assumes he'll see him between rounds of this "new game" that he believes Sherlock is about to play.


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January 20, 2015 8:58 am  #98


Re: The tarmac scene, what do you think?

I guess that depends on how you interpret it. When Sherlock says "Who knows?" and won't really meet John's eyes, it can be interpreted that John understands what that means. 


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 

January 20, 2015 9:22 am  #99


Re: The tarmac scene, what do you think?

I think John realises that something has irrevocably changed and that after shooting Magnussen Sherlock will not be able to continue his life as before. But I am not sure that he truly realises Sherlock is going to die. Because as far as we know he does not know anything about the Serbian episode. 
 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

January 20, 2015 9:50 am  #100


Re: The tarmac scene, what do you think?

It took me a while to come to terms with this scene, because initially I also thought What the heck, why can't they show more emotions, why can't they talk about how miserable it all feels?!
But the way I see it now (and it was mentioned in this thread already, I'm sure), John certainly still is overwhelmed by everything that's happened. I don't see him as someone who can shrug something like this off within days or even weeks. And I think he's fu**** scared. And I also think that he has no idea how his life will evolve now. So what is there to say when you don't know what to say? There certainly are a myriad things to say, if you think about it, so where should they even begin? So I think the only logical solution, from a writers point of view, is to have them say nothing at all apart from some jokes - jokes which feel awkward and which actually make you feel how much pain there is between them.  


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