Mattlocked wrote:

I'm quite interested in reading your blog, btw. Where can I find it?

I'm enjoying the anonymity here and prefer to not share the link.

Mary

It's fun to be here and be a crazy fannish person instead of so-and-so from the blog and to share things here that I would never share there. For example, I just don't see myself saying things like "OMG, Benedict Cumberbatch is so hooooooooooooooooot!" on my blog.

Mary

I've now seen HLV  and read more of your threads here, and I'm wondering if there's more to this wedding than first meets the eye.   There are so many things that are "off" about the whole thing.   It's bothered me that John and Mary plan such a flashy wedding to start with, because it doesn't seem like something they (as characters) would go for.   It becomes even more strange, when you find out that Mary is essentially in hiding.   She's trying to keep her identity secret.  What could be be more public and exposing than a big, fancy wedding?  Why does she do that?   It's not for friends and family - they're thin on the ground. 

She must be sending some sort of message.   Although she seems a little shocked at the message from CAM, she must have expected it.  After all, she's made his PA her bridesmaid!  That goes a little beyond befriending her for information.  Sherlock says it was a stroke of luck that he met Janine at the wedding, but of course it wasn't.  Mary was using her, and Sherlock continued to use her for the same purpose.  And Sherlock knows that, doesn't he?  That Mary was using Janine to get to CAM?  When did he know?   You see, he might just be having fun with Janine at the wedding because he's enjoying the social interaction ... but it's not something he normally does.   Is he sussing out the situation? 

One thing that was a little odd, but which I haven't worried much about it is that Sherlock, quite inappropriately really, speaks for Mary when he says that "we will never let you down, and we have a lifetime ahead to prove that".  Why does he speak for Mary?  And later, he makes the vow to all three, a vow which seems to tie him into acting as he does in HLV, but why?  I kept thinking that he was using the wedding as a way to say things to John that would be difficult in private, and I still think that applies, but there seems to be more to it.  And it seems to be the pregnancy that inspires that last vow. 

I don't have any convincing theories at all, just that I am getting the feeling that Sherlock might know more than he's letting on throughout TSOT.  And just as Mary has for some reason, publicised herself with a wedding, Sherlock seems to be choosing to change his public image - why?  He also describes himself as a sociopath yet again (creating an image), and again in HLV (to give a public reason for the shooting).  At the start of HLV he publicises himself as a drug user to create a fake "pressure point" in CAM's mind.  He also sent a message to Moriarty in a similar way.  (Moriarty fell for it, CAM didn't, so I'm a little disappointed that CAM is the one who is dead!).   That's what Sherlock does with his public persona - he uses it to send messages.   (And so does Mary?).   In this case, it's possible that it's only a message to Mary - that he's wanting Mary to underestimate him. Why?

I thought Sherlock was so extremely loyal to Mary because John loved her and Sherlock thought she was good for John.  But his apparent loyalty continues even after he thinks she's a danger to John.  He defends Mary, covers for her and pushes them together.  There's got to be some ulterior motive, some grand plan that hasn't shown itself. 

After all, Sherlock knew Mary was lying from the beginning.

The trouble is that I'd expect all this to be resolved by the end of HLV, and it isn't.  So maybe, yet again, I'm seeing things I want to see?

As to why John and Mary had such a big, traditional wedding in the first place - I don't think John would have insisted on it but why shouldn't it have been very importan to Mary? Even without assuming that Mary used the wedding to make a declaration of war on CAM (much as I find this an intriguing idea), even without any hidden purpose in mind, I find it believable that Mary (of all people) should want it that way. I can perfectly believe that she truly wanted to put her past behind her forever and live a normal life from then on, including all the lovely romantic traditional stuff like having a big wedding that professional assassins don't usually get to enjoy.

And John wouldn't be the first bridegroom to have just been swept along and said yes to everything as long as his bride was happy. Plus, think of the additional pressure on John to comply with everything once Sherlock had taken over the wedding as HIS very own special project. From that point on I don't see how John would have stood any chance of making the wedding "his" wedding, even if he'd have wanted to celebrate it in some specific, very different way.

Liberty wrote:

After all, Sherlock knew Mary was lying from the beginning.

Isn't that a misunderstanding - from his "deductions" about Mary in TEH we know that he sensed that she was "a liar", but he didn't know (or didn't bother to find out) in what specific way she was a liar and whether it touched her relationship with John. I got the impression that the revelation that Mary's entire identity and biography were one big lie came as a huge surprise to Sherlock in HLV. He certainly didn't expect to meet her in CAM's office, did he? So I believe his interaction with her in TEH and TSOT was quite innocent.


As for

Liberty wrote:

One thing that was a little odd, but which I haven't worried much about it is that Sherlock, quite inappropriately really, speaks for Mary when he says that "we will never let you down, and we have a lifetime ahead to prove that".  Why does he speak for Mary?  And later, he makes the vow to all three, a vow which seems to tie him into acting as he does in HLV, but why?  I kept thinking that he was using the wedding as a way to say things to John that would be difficult in private, and I still think that applies, but there seems to be more to it.  And it seems to be the pregnancy that inspires that last vow. 

As to Sherlock's words to John in the speech being inappropriate, I beg to differ. Just imagine he would not have spoken for Mary, but excluded her completely, and spoken only for himself? Now that would have been inappropriate indeed. It would have been a deliberate affront towards Mary. He's been intruding on their wedding and on their marriage enough already, he really couldn't go so far as to openly make a rival marriage vow to the groom that deliberately excluded the bride. The only other way he could have put it would have been to speak only for himself but to both of them, as in "I will never let the two of you down", but then it would no longer have been the single beautiful declaration of love to John that it was supposed to be. (NB: Not a Johnlocker speaking here - I don't ship them romantically but I believe their relationship defies the usual boundaries of the term "friendship", so I use to word love because "friendship" doesn't seem a big enough word.)

I also think there's a second aspect to him deliberately including Mary in that promise - I think he also wants to make a public declaration that he's fine with John having found a wife and leaving 221b and all that it entails. He may feel very differently in his heart but he wants to give John and Mary a sort of official blessing, he wants to make it official that it will be he and Mary looking after John from now on. It's just one more example of the extraordinary lengths he goes to in order to make John happy. 


As to why that vow from the speech needed a repetition later on, after the waltz, is the writers' secret - I believe its narrative purpose was simply to set up the "three of you" revelation, but the repetition does take away from that beautiful moment in the speech earlier on. Then again, I really like your interpretation that by the time of the speech, earlier on in the day, Sherlock hadn't yet made the deduction of the pregnancy, and once he'd realised that, he had to make another vow (or intensify the first one) to include the baby.

Last edited by La Jolie (August 20, 2014 8:54 pm)

Liberty wrote:

... Then there was Sherlock being surprised at being John's best friend.  It didn't make any sense.  Sherlock has called John his friend in the very first episode (ASiP).   Just in the last episode, John has said that Sherlock is the best man he's ever known.  I know Sherlock can sometimes miss the obvious, but I didn't find it believable that he would be so dumbfounded at being John's best friend.  It was a sweet little scene otherwise.  And I recognise that Sherlock is telling a story, and it's possible that it didn't actually happen like that...

I think Sherlock did believe that John considered him his best friend it at the start of TEH. He also probably read John’s blog where he said it too. That’s why he was so INCREDIBLY cocky about revealing himself, and said, “John will be delighted!”, "What life, I've been away" and so forth. We know during TRF Sherlock still had doubts about John’s loyalty and just how much he meant to John*, so the fall changed all that for Sherlock.
 
Then when he saw how hurt John was, and how John didn’t want to talk to him at first, he thought he’d ruined it all. He gets why he ruined it all, even, and tries to apologize with the bomb thing. He goes through some self-loathing and just spends his time trying to make it up to John. But it’s not like it was before, and John spends a lot of time with Mary, and Sherlock feels relegated to a mere acquaintance or whatever. Not someone important to John.
 
So when John comes to him in TSoT and tells him he’s his best friend like it's so f*****g obvious, Sherlock is like, WHAAAAAAAAAAAT! He can’t believe John considers him his best friend EVEN AFTER the disaster of Sherlock’s return. That blows his mind. And not to mention we learn from his wedding speech that he always had this disbelief of how someone like John would ever consider someone like Sherlock his best friend.
 
*

a)
Sherlock: It really bothers you.
John: What?
Sherlock: What people say.
John: Yes.
Sherlock: About me? I don’t understand – why would it upset you?
 
b)
Sherlock: I don’t care what people think.
John: You’d care if they thought you were stupid, or wrong.
Sherlock: No, that would just make them stupid or wrong.
John: Sherlock, I don’t want the world believing you’re ...
Sherlock: That I am what?
John: A fraud.
Sherlock: You’re worried they’re right.
John: What?
Sherlock: You’re worried they’re right about me.
John: No!
Sherlock: That’s why you’re so upset. You can’t even entertain the possibility that they might be right. You’re afraid that you’ve been taken in as well.
John: No I’m not!
Sherlock: Moriarty is playing with your mind too. CAN’T YOU SEE WHAT’S GOING ON???

I agree with Liberty, even if the fall had been a complete game changer for their relationship, at the end of TEH they were reconciled, even if still a bit on shaky ground. John was back in 221b even before the bomb-scene, he said he forgave him, and they had a real touching reunion in the hallway. I would have believed his feelings if he had been really relieved and a bit surprised at John's proposal to be his best man, but the complete system shut-down just didn't ring true with me. Yes, it is cute, but you know.. Continuity?

Another thing I find touching but very confusing at the same time time is Sherlock's "I solve the murder, John Watson saves the life". This is so not true during the series.. Yes, John noticed the guard wasn't dead and helped Sherlock in several occasions. But the one who saved countless lives was Sherlock. He saved Sarah, Moriarty's hostages, the abducted children, Henry Knight and last but not least Lestrade, John and Mrs. H. And that list doesn't count the future victims that were saved by stopping the cabbie and Moriarty. John showing more empathy towards the victims does not equal saving their lives, on the contrary. I think Sherlock is quite right in TGG that in order to think straight in times of great distress you have to distance yourself from emotions. And I find it a bit.. jarring?. that everyone including himself seems to agree in this ep that Sherlock is the problematic one and John the good guy. This is only true at a superficial level , and they could have emphasized John's value without putting down Sherlock's achievements and his personality in return imo..

He seems very eager to publicly put himself in the sociopath-corner again.. just when I hoped this wouldn´t be necessary anymore because he developed out of this facade. Maybe a conscious effort to distance himself from the happy couple and trying to retreat into "alone is what I have, alone protects me" again? Because he couldn´t allow himself to get involved and to feel too much? I could actually imagine this being the reason behind demeaning himself and show off just how offensive he can be during the speech.. 

I don't think he's a little disingenuous about that.  He likes people to think he just speaks the truth and doesn't care, but he does seem to care about the effect of what he says (and says things deliberately for effect).

The "alone" quote is when he's alone for other people's protection, not his own ...  and he is displaying a lot of genuine feeling as well.  I don't know.  Still very confused about this episode and about what he's trying to do. I thought I'd get some answers in HLV, but I still don't know for sure what he's hiding in that episode either. 

Never mind the wedding, could just be an excuse for some flashy cinematography, but why does someone who carries a deadly secret want a detective on her side and even tries to get John and Sherlock together once she learns that Sherlock isn't dead? 

silverblaze, Liberty, following your thoughts that could even mean that she choose John deliberately from the very beginning because she knew that Sherlock was still alive...? If she didn't know and she just met John by chance, it really would have been safer for her to stay as far away from Sherlock as possible. She must have known there was a good chance that he (and maybe also his brother) would eventually discover the truth about her...