The HUG! Why hasn't anybody mentioned the HUG before!!!


Mary, you're so right about the two finales (TRF and HLV). I can't say TRF really annoys me but I feel very uncomfortable about it. HLV isn't exactly comfortable but it makes sense, it's a rounded, well-shaped thing, as opposed to TRF with all its frayed and loose ends (and I don't just mean the "how did he do it").

maryagrawatson wrote:

The only other time we see [Sherlock being submissive] is near the end of TRF when he's being handcuffed. John is legitimately angry about that because the officers are doing it just as a power play (handcuffs aren't automatic in a British arrest) and Sherlock is very submissive/compliant about it.

It's not quite the same though. Outwardly Sherlock is in an equally helpless situation in both scenes, but

a) The submission in TRF is imposed on him by others, while in HLV, that particular gesture was certainly not technically required of him (hands up would have been enough to satisfy Mycroft's armed forces). It came from the inside and is all the more poignant for it.

and, related to a) and even more important,

b) In TRF, he's already got a plan how to get out of it (which is why he doesn't resist until the right moment has come) while in HLV he certainly hasn't. The arrest and subsequent escape in TRF is the classic Hero in Distress, almost undone by his enemies, but still managing to turn the tables at the last moment. The final scene at Appledore is the exact opposite - the bad guy is dead and will never hurt our hero again, but it's come at the price of the hero undoing himself. And that is something we really haven't seen before. TRF was a big bluff from beginning to end but I firmly believe that HLV wasn't.


(And I don't trust Mofftis as far as I could throw them - not that I'd ever want to do that - but I truly believe that Sherlock's upset and sorrow at the very end (in the tarmac scene) was genuine. We won't see him and Mycroft at the start of S4 high-fiving each other about how well  the "Moriarty returns" scheme worked...)

La Jolie wrote:

It's not quite the same though. Outwardly Sherlock is in an equally helpless situation in both scenes, but

a) The submission in TRF is imposed on him by others, while in HLV, that particular gesture was certainly not technically required of him (hands up would have been enough to satisfy Mycroft's armed forces).

I disagree with that.

In TRF, he would have been correct to protest the handcuffs. Instead, he was meek and let the cops have their fun. In a way, he was actually one-upping them and refusing to give them the spectacle they wanted. He was completely in control of that situation.

As for HLV, he's facing a fully armed tactical team. I'm not as familiar with arrest procedures in the UK as I am in Canada and the US, but I know that over here, he would have very likely been ordered onto his stomach to be searched for more weapons, then handcuffed. By sinking to his knees of his own accord, he was making it very clear that he was surrendering and no longer a threat. Hands in the air wouldn't have been enough.

Here's a question: in whose head was the crying 11-year-old Sherlock?

Mary

A Study in Pink !

I think we see young Sherlock in Sherlock's Mind Palace from Mycroft's perspective, too. Mycrot called him "a very stupid little boy".

maryagrawatson wrote:

There was just something about Sherlock being submissive that undid me.

Ah. Yes. That. I didn't know how to put that into words. Perfect. Thank you.
I felt like free-falling when Sherlock stopped fighting and surrendered.

Although I'm now never sure if I read Sherlock right. I kind of expect series 4 to start with "oh don't worry, I wanted to shoot him anyway, all part of the plan, did you honestly worry about me". Looking back on TRF with series 3 kind of... ruined my trust in submissive Sherlock. I see it in the Appledore scene, but I don't trust it... I don't feel the impact everytime I watch it now. Sometimes it gets to me like the first time (breathìng? boring), but sometimes it kind of... feels wrong. Maybe series 3 just messed with my head. I cannot express that feeling any better... could be Moftiss trust issues. Could be I still didn't take in the new character development of Sherlock.
And I still wish it ended there, with Appledore. No plane, no coming back.
ok, I'll stop complaining now
 

Whisky wrote:

maryagrawatson wrote:

There was just something about Sherlock being submissive that undid me.

Ah. Yes. That. I didn't know how to put that into words. Perfect. Thank you.
I felt like free-falling when Sherlock stopped fighting and surrendered.

Although I'm now never sure if I read Sherlock right. I kind of expect series 4 to start with "oh don't worry, I wanted to shoot him anyway, all part of the plan, did you honestly worry about me". Looking back on TRF with series 3 kind of... ruined my trust in submissive Sherlock. I see it in the Appledore scene, but I don't trust it... I don't feel the impact everytime I watch it now. Sometimes it gets to me like the first time (breathìng? boring), but sometimes it kind of... feels wrong. Maybe series 3 just messed with my head. I cannot express that feeling any better... could be Moftiss trust issues. Could be I still didn't take in the new character development of Sherlock.
And I still wish it ended there, with Appledore. No plane, no coming back.
ok, I'll stop complaining now
 

From a podcast:
"Moffat: Sherlock works out that the only way to stop Magnussen is to shoot him in the face, so he does. Most people can’t do that. Most people wouldn’t just go bang.

Gatiss: You don’t want to get bogged down in some dreary procedural about it all. It’s got a sort of operatic quality to it, which is what makes that ending, I think, very powerful.

Moffat: Also, if you read [The Adventure Of] Charles Augustus Milverton, Dr. Watson in the opening paragraph tells you that he’s about to tell you a porkie. He says, ‘I even now must be very reticent.’ I think what Doyle is hinting at is that Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson sat in Baker Street and said, ‘Right, we’re going to have to go and kill him, aren’t we? That’s the only way we can do this.’ So they break in, kill him, and then Dr. Watson writes up a version of the story that puts the murder [on someone else].

Gatiss: They’re hiding in their burglar masks behind the curtain, and this random woman comes and shoots Milverton in the face and then grinds her heel into his face. It’s odd, isn’t it? So I mean really, it’s just an extrapolation of saying, ‘Well, he probably did it, I think.’

Moffat: If Sherlock Holmes decided that somebody should die, he would kill them. I don’t think he’d have any problem with that.

Gatiss: He regards Milverton as a sort of plague, something that should be eradicated."

Which kind of takes away the submission aspect.  Well, that's completely not how I saw it.   I think Sherlock decides it needs to be done and is committed to it, but I think I see him having difficulty with it.  If nothing else, he knows the consequences are going to be very serious.  Again, he's making a huge sacrifice, and saving other people (John and other victims), at great cost to himself.  Just like at the end of TRF.  I think he does "have a problem" with it, but still feels compelled to do it because he can't see an alternative.   But I suppose I can't really argue with the writers, for goodness sake!   I'll just have to choose my own interpretation and accept that it might be wrong.  

If they're right (and I suppose they have to be!), then it makes Sherlock much closer to Mary than I'd thought.  Mary said that there were people like her because people like Magnusson had to be killed, and Sherlock is the same - somebody who can cold-bloodedly shoot him in the head if necessary.   And it looks as if the writers almost algamated Sherlock and Mary at that point (if she's not just Mary Morstan but Milverton's killer, as I think they're saying), as the original character was just something invented by Sherlock.  Mary is almost a part of him, and he finishes what she set out to do. 

As for Mycroft and Sherlock, I do think Mycroft secretly respects Sherlock.  He's not a goldfish after all.  I thought the child Sherlock was Sherlock's POV - he's going to be sent off to his death, like Redbeard.  But it does make sense for it to be Mycroft's POV too, feeling protective of his little brother and knowing the same thing (and that his heart is going to be broken).  I need to watch it again. 

Last edited by Liberty (August 28, 2014 6:42 pm)

Liberty wrote:

Which kind of takes away the submission aspect.  Well, that's completely not how I saw it.   I think Sherlock decides it needs to be done and is committed to it, but I think I see him having difficulty with it.  If nothing else, he knows the consequences are going to be very serious. 
...
 I think he does "have a problem" with it, but still feels compelled to do it because he can't see an alternative.   But I suppose I can't really argue with the writers, for goodness sake!   I'll just have to choose my own interpretation and accept that it might be wrong. 

I agree with you, Liberty (I seem to do that a lot ). They're not making much sense there.

 I think on the whole it's unfair to compare the ending of the Milverton story with the ending of HLV. In "Milverton", Holmes and Watson weren't in immediate danger. There's no aspect of sacrifice to it, on noone's part. There is no dilemma that requires a drastic solution. The solution just pops out of nowhere (enter the lady in black) before the problem (Milverton catching Holmes and Watson in the act of burglary) even arises.

I don't feel that Sherlock is being like Mary in the final scene of HLV. I don't think he's in the business of cold-bloodedly shooting people that are a danger to security / society, the way Mary used to be.

Just look at his face from the point onwards when  Magnussen reveals his archives don't exist except in his mind, and Sherlock realises he will have to kill him. He's feeling so sick with it that he has trouble swallowing. And then he closes his eyes for a moment and it's like he's kneeling down already, inwardly. From that point on he also seems to be constantly fighting tears. Every time he speaks from that point on his voice is close to breaking. All of this makes no sense whatsoever if he didn't  have a problem with it.

But I don't think we're getting the scene wrong! We don't know how much of all those little details was in the actual script. Maybe Mofftiss envisioned it the way they described it in the podcast, but it was the director's or Benedict's choice to play it differently. Much more believable, and much more heart-rending and tragic, if you ask me! Operatic is the right word. Wonderfully operatic. The light, the music, the solemnity of it. It's no coincidence that the patio it plays out on is much like an open air theatre stage.

 

La Jolie wrote:

Just look at his face from the point onwards when  Magnussen reveals his archives don't exist except in his mind, and Sherlock realises he will have to kill him. He's feeling so sick with it that he has trouble swallowing. And then he closes his eyes for a moment and it's like he's kneeling down already, inwardly. From that point on he also seems to be constantly fighting tears. Every time he speaks from that point on his voice is close to breaking. All of this makes no sense whatsoever if he didn't  have a problem with it.

But I don't think we're getting the scene wrong! We don't know how much of all those little details was in the actual script. Maybe Mofftiss envisioned it the way they described it in the podcast, but it was the director's or Benedict's choice to play it differently. Much more believable, and much more heart-rending and tragic, if you ask me! Operatic is the right word. Wonderfully operatic. The light, the music, the solemnity of it. It's no coincidence that the patio it plays out on is much like an open air theatre stage.
 

Yes.   Whatever the writers might say, I think what we're getting from it is something bigger and better than what they're claiming.  Maybe it is just down to Benedict's interpretation and his wonderfully expressive face. 

But then the writers seem to keep injecting emotion into the series anyway, so yes, maybe they're just playing with us.

Yes Sherlock wasn't cold, he did it for John.

That is way i normally stay away from what he and Mark say. The both could win the J.K. Rowling award from making me going off their work, if i would read further