BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

RavenMorganLeigh · August 28, 2014 4:42 pm

nakahara wrote:
ShadyShapeshifter wrote:
lil wrote:
My feelings are that the confrontation in 221b was an emotional mexican stand off. John would have been forced into a choice between Sherlock and his wife and unborn child.
Sherlock saved him the angst and forgave the unforgivable and "bowed out" in a gentleman and Sherlockian like manner .
So, the confrontation at 221b, I guess that’s stuff for discussion, isn’t it? What do you all think about our “threesome” at this scene and their behavior?

I am really moved by Sherlock´s nobility, a little disappointed over John´s behaviour but pitying him for his predicament at the same time and Mary genuinely scares me - she is like a cobra, all poised and outwardly calm, but prepared to strike at any moment (you just feel the danger behind her cool exterior).

I'm kind of in the same place you are, I think.

RavenMorganLeigh · August 28, 2014 4:54 pm

The baker street confrontation:

One: I always thought that Sherlock was either outright lying-- or even trying to convince himself that Mary "saved his life." He may have been trying to convince Mary that *he* beleived this fiction. If nothing else, he may simply have been calm her down: "See, even though the truth is out, I'm still pon your side, and trying to help you by not making you look completely evil to John-- there's still hope for your marriage!"

Why? I think because Mary is very dangerous-- and Sherlock may have worried that she'd hurt John, herself and the baby, if John left her.

She's not exactly rational, she's a narcissist. I mean, she actually beleived that she could lie to John from the begining, shoot his freind, threaten him-- and after all of that, she can't acknoweldge that she's done anything wrong. She doesn't seem to understand how she's hurt John, she only seems to care that he thinks she's someone he could love, not that she actually is or becomes someone he could love. It's all about the facade.

So, I think she stayed silent and let Sherlock do the driving, because she was t his mercy and she knew it. Sherlock did her a favor-- but I think it was to keep John safe-- and possibly because she's nmot retired, she's caught up in something much bigger-- and I think it may get her, the baby or someone else killed next season.

silverblaze · August 28, 2014 5:38 pm

Am I the only one then, who takes Sherlock's explanation at face value? Because I believe that's how Moffat meant that. Any thoughts?

RavenMorganLeigh · August 28, 2014 5:54 pm

silverblaze wrote:
Am I the only one then, who takes Sherlock's explanation at face value? Because I believe that's how Moffat meant that. Any thoughts?

I don't think you're the only one, not by a long shot. :-)

I absolutely don't buy Sherlock's explanation, because it doesn't make logical sense to me. They lost me with "surgery". That's when the plot jumped the shark , for me.

SusiGo · August 28, 2014 6:00 pm

Not believing him for me it is the only way to accept the Baker Street scene. It preyed on my mind and I thought about it long and hard and came to the conclusion that he must be trying to lull Mary into false security. There is so much wrong about this scene. And he hurts John so much that I really cannot imagine he means what he says.

besleybean · August 28, 2014 6:05 pm

But it may be an uncomfortable truth.

SusiGo · August 28, 2014 6:08 pm

I know that we may see in series 4 that he meant it. Everything is possible.
But for me the scene does not work that way. We are shown Sherlock's mind in the mind palace scene, next he is threatened by Mary at the hospital, then she again threatens to kill him in Leinster Gardens - at which moment exactly should he change his mind and go, oh well, tiny incident with a gun, just surgery, so what, she is what you wanted, John, so stay with her? Sorry, but that does not work for me. (And I think I am not alone in this so there must be at least some ambiguity in this scene)

Last edited by SusiGo (August 28, 2014 6:09 pm)

RavenMorganLeigh · August 28, 2014 6:10 pm

SusiGo wrote:
I know that we may see in series 4 that he meant it. Everything is possible.
But for me the scene does not work that way. We are shown Sherlock's mind in the mind palace scene, next he is threatened by Mary at the hospital, then she again threatens to kill him in Leinster Gardens - at which moment exactly should he change his mind and go, oh well, tiny incident with a gun, just surgery, so what, she is what you wanted, John, so stay with her? Sorry, but that does not work for me. (And I think I am not alone in this so there must be at least some ambiguity in this scene)

I agree. For all of those reasons.

besleybean · August 28, 2014 6:11 pm

I feel Sherlock knows the truith about Mary will just about kill John and he's also worried about what danger she's in, which may also put John in danger.

SusiGo · August 28, 2014 6:20 pm

Agreed. But this does not mean that he is telling John the truth when he says that he chose Mary because she fulfilled his need for danger. IMO he wants John to accept the explanation because he is playing for time. Sherlock's own life is in danger at this moment and he has to act quickly. I get the feeling that he puts on a show for Mary.
I do not believe Sherlock has forgiven her and that in his eyes John will be permanently safe and happy with her. And the Christmas scene shows us that is has taken John indeed months to even talk to her at length.

Last edited by SusiGo (August 28, 2014 6:20 pm)

Liberty · August 28, 2014 6:24 pm

I think it's possible Sherlock is telling the truth. I just find it hard to believe. But there are a couple of points which might support the truth:

- Mary didn't shoot Sherlock in the head
- Sherlock chooses to be sent into exile/death while leaving John with Mary (and without his protection). He thinks John is better off with Mary there and Sherlock gone, than he would be with Sherlock there and Mary gone (if Magnusson arranged that).

That's a really big thing he's doing, essentially trading his life for Mary's. He's got to think it will benefit John.

Apart from that, there is lots of evidence that Mary is a villain and I tend to lean that way. But ... I don't think I can be sure until S4.

besleybean · August 28, 2014 6:28 pm

But the alternative for Sherlock was life imprisonment...where he wouldn't be able to help John either.

mrshouse · August 28, 2014 6:32 pm

But I have trouble with the timing here, liberty. Your first point is quite true. She didn't go for the head shot. But the second one... Consider that the Baker street scene is months before Appledore. Sherlock couldn't dream of this outcome, there was his injury to deal with and it was all the way up to Christmas eve that he thought he could handle Magnusson by snapping hard proof he held on Mary.

SusiGo · August 28, 2014 6:34 pm

Liberty wrote:
I think it's possible Sherlock is telling the truth. I just find it hard to believe. But there are a couple of points which might support the truth:

- Mary didn't shoot Sherlock in the head

This is one thing I simply do not understand (not in your post but in the context of the episode): why should anyone who gets shot and nearly dies be understanding just because he was not killed outright? This surgery thing does not make any sense. What does surgery mean? Operating on someone who is hurt/ill to make him better or heal him. Mary does neither of that.

Last edited by SusiGo (August 28, 2014 6:35 pm)

silverblaze · August 28, 2014 6:58 pm

No, that simply doesn't fly. If Sherlock believed that Mary was a villain, he wouldn't have gone to Appledore to get the files and he wouldn't have shot Magnussen. Magnussen wouldn't have had any leverage on him whatsoever and he certainly wouldn't have made so much effort to get John and Mary back together.

I think that Mary was bluffing when she was threatening Sherlock because if she really wanted to kill him, she would have done so already. She bluffed because she still tried to silence him without killing him. There's no evidence that she's a villain, we simply don't know what happened in her past, other than that she worked for the CIA and was involved in some secret operations. And even that we don't know for sure because Magnussen could very well be lying.

Susi, what's wrong with the Baker Street scene when you take it at face value? I don't really see the problem: He understands that she choose not to kill him while she easily could have done so, he forgives her because he likes her and he wants to help her and John.

My suspicion is not that she's a villain, but that's she's protecting something or someone from her past.

SusiGo · August 28, 2014 7:05 pm

I think he went to Appledore to help Mary because as long as Mary was in danger John was in danger, too. He must have known that Magnussen knew about her past and he did not know that there was no physical evidence.

Well, we know that she killed people. And if we believe Magnussen - and Magnussen has not lied as far as I know - she was a "bad, bad girl". Interesting btw how this scene is edited, showing Mary in Sherlock's hospital room and Magnussen's comment.

This is very simple - we get a deep look into Sherlock's mind. We see Mary in her wedding dress shooting him while he is seeking comfort. And in his own mind he says "John Watson is in danger. That wife!" And then we see Mary threatening him in his weakened state. And then we see her in Leinster Gardens, threatenig him again, kicking the coin to him and making him pick it up.
This is no interpretation, this is what we see in the show. And then two minutes later they want me to believe that everything is fine? Sorry, this is just too easy for me.

Last edited by SusiGo (August 28, 2014 7:06 pm)

RavenMorganLeigh · August 28, 2014 7:47 pm

Again, I have to agree with SusiGo; it's actually MORE complicated to try to buy Sherlock's explanation at face value, not less. It's like you have to twist things, and make stuff up to force his explanation make any sense at all. Mofftiss likes to play slieght-of-hand on this show; they have a character say one thing and do the opposite.

And Mary didn't shoot Sherlock in the head for a very simple reason, if she had, that would have been the end of the show! :-D

I'm just going to say this: if MY friend shot me in the chest, because I discovered them doing something really, really bad, (like being an assassin) and they didn't want me to tell their husband about it, and I actually survived--- I would be out for some serious payback, as in that person going to prison forever.

And I think the "You chose her", comment that Sherlock made to John was less about blaming John (which is how everyone seems to take it) and more about pointing out to John that he needs to be conscious of his choices, and why he makes them. If you've ever had the experience of having the same bad apples show up in your life, even though you decided never to have that sort of connection again, and those people even presented as totally different, positive, sane people-- and then you find out after the fact that they're another bad apple--then, you know what I mean. :-)

Zatoichi · August 28, 2014 7:52 pm

silverblaze wrote:
No, that simply doesn't fly. If Sherlock believed that Mary was a villain, he wouldn't have gone to Appledore to get the files and he wouldn't have shot Magnussen. Magnussen wouldn't have had any leverage on him whatsoever and he certainly wouldn't have made so much effort to get John and Mary back together.

I guess he still would have done these things, because he made his vow to the three Watsons. Mary is pregnant with John´s child he vowed to protect. He just couldn´t have Magnussen let the killers loose on Mary, no matter if she´s a villain or not.

Liberty · August 28, 2014 8:05 pm

besleybean wrote:
But the alternative for Sherlock was life imprisonment...where he wouldn't be able to help John either.

I think Mycroft could have worked something around the laptop situation, but there was no easy way to get out of the murder - Sherlock makes sure of that.

silverblaze · August 28, 2014 8:05 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Well, we know that she killed people. And if we believe Magnussen - and Magnussen has not lied as far as I know - she was a "bad, bad girl". Interesting btw how this scene is edited, showing Mary in Sherlock's hospital room and Magnussen's comment.

This is very simple - we get a deep look into Sherlock's mind. We see Mary in her wedding dress shooting him while he is seeking comfort. And in his own mind he says "John Watson is in danger. That wife!" And then we see Mary threatening him in his weakened state. And then we see her in Leinster Gardens, threatenig him again, kicking the coin to him and making him pick it up.
This is no interpretation, this is what we see in the show. And then two minutes later they want me to believe that everything is fine? Sorry, this is just too easy for me.

We've seen the same thing and given it different meanings. That makes this show so interesting and God knows how Moftiss will turn it all on its head next time. I didn't take that to mean that Mary was evil, I thought Moffat set up a question: why did Mary shoot him, is she evil? And then resolved it in the baker street scene. Just to make it all more tense.