BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » The tarmac scene, what do you think?

La Jolie · August 28, 2014 9:03 am

Cliffhanger, what cliffhanger? It would have been a devastating cliffhanger if it had stopped when the plane takes off and we have no idea what future awaits Sherlock and whether he will ever come back and see John again. But this way, what cliffhanger is there concerning Sherlock's future? None at all. He's been saved, that's all we need to know. I find that very elegant.

SolarSystem · August 28, 2014 9:42 am

In my opinion there is a cliffhanger concerning the relationship between Sherlock and John. But that certainly lies in the eye of the beholder.
And the ending of the episode is not elegant, imo.

Last edited by SolarSystem (August 28, 2014 9:43 am)

mrshouse · August 28, 2014 9:53 am

SolarSystem wrote:
In my opinion there is a cliffhanger concerning the relationship between Sherlock and John. But that certainly lies in the eye of the beholder.

/\/\ This.

SusiGo · August 28, 2014 9:56 am

Yes, you could say that. Definitely.

mrshouse · August 28, 2014 10:22 am

Herr is a little meta, well it's mainly a quote by Siegmund Freud, why the minimalism in the scene is quite sufficient. The non-johnlockers may just leave the last sentence aside...
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/73692983684/if-you-are-a-young-man-will-it-not-be-from-small

maryagrawatson · August 28, 2014 1:56 pm

SolarSystem wrote:
In my opinion there is a cliffhanger concerning the relationship between Sherlock and John.

Indeed. I can feel such a gulf between them on the tarmac. They're not at ease with each other. There is so much unsaid and they simply haven't been close in series 3, not like in series 1 and 2. They are feeling the weight of that two years apart and not dealing properly with Sherlock's return. On the tarmac, I see two men who were once very close but are now on divergent paths.

Mary

besleybean · August 28, 2014 3:51 pm

But why do you all keep talking about the tarmac?!
Something happened after that...
Sherlock is coming back and John looked quite happy about it.

RavenMorganLeigh · August 28, 2014 5:13 pm

I don't really see John as "passive" in the tarmac scene, I see him as guarded and resigned, and possibly relieved, as in, "thank God, this chapter is over, he's going away,"-- and that's not saying that I think he's actually happy that Sherlock is leaving again-- but I think he's looking forward to less ambiguity in his life. Now, he can concentrate on Mary and the Baby--which is what he tells himself that he wants, when that's not what actually makes him happy at all. He's sliding back into living a lie, and that's comfortable for John.

I think Sherlock really wanted to say something very sentimental, and knew that John was just not ready to hear it.

What had me screaming at my computer screen though, was how long it took for John to shake Sherlock's hand. And I'm going, "You don't trust Sherlock???? Look wehat's he's done for you!!!! You trust the lady in the red coat???" Ahem. I think John is terrified of trusting anyone again. He doesn't even trust himself! And i think he's still angry; perpetually angry.

What is all that rage masking?

As for TRF-- I think Sherlock's emotions as we saw them were genuine. And that actually has more to do with continuity-- the way it was filmed, than anything else. We see him panic on the roof, we see him crying-- and there is no one, including John, close enough to see if he's shamming. But we see what he goes through. We see his fear as he looks down at the pavement. He see his horror as Moriarty blows his brains out. He see the tears running down his check, unchecked. We see the snipers.

That version does not jive with Lazarus. Anderson was right.

silverblaze · August 28, 2014 5:29 pm

Funny how we can all have such different interpretations. I don't find John's and Sherlock's reactions particularly puzzling. What shocked me most is what Mycroft did.

maryagrawatson · August 28, 2014 6:00 pm

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
What had me screaming at my computer screen though, was how long it took for John to shake Sherlock's hand.

I have an opposite reaction to that pause. I can just hear John going, "A handshake?! After all we've been through?!"

As for TRF-- I think Sherlock's emotions as we saw them were genuine.

Moffat has gone on record to say that Sherlock's tears and emotions were fake:

"Whereas all of Sherlock’s emotion on the rooftop when he’s talking to John in “The Reichenbach Fall” is completely faked — he’s just trying to give his friend a bad time so he’ll be in an emotional state to believe what’s about to happen..."

Mary

SusiGo · August 28, 2014 6:37 pm

This is interesting because the majority of the fandom seems to believe his emotions were true. So either people are very stupid or Benedict, Martin, and the scriptwriter did not do their jobs properly.

besleybean · August 28, 2014 6:42 pm

I don't know if it's just me or are we all over the place?
Are we talking the rooftop?
I can only say what I've always said about It(and I don't always agree with Steven!)
I think Sherlock had to make a convincing suicide...
But I do think he was genuinely upset about what he knew he was going to do to John.,.

SusiGo · August 28, 2014 6:58 pm

Yes, it is getting a bit out of hand. And I fully agree with you. Even if Steven says otherwise, most people believe that Sherlock is putting on a show while at the same time showing genuine feelings of regret for what he has to do.

maryagrawatson · August 28, 2014 7:02 pm

SusiGo wrote:
This is interesting because the majority of the fandom seems to believe his emotions were true. So either people are very stupid or Benedict, Martin, and the scriptwriter did not do their jobs properly.

Actually, I think everyone did a great job. We know John's emotions were real. All Benedict's performance does is remind us that Sherlock's a master manipulator who can cry on command.

There are not enough words to describe how angry that rooftop scene makes me.

Mary

SusiGo · August 28, 2014 7:12 pm

Sorry, but this is not what I feel when watching this. Seems he has manipulated me as well. And the whole team because they were all crying when they watched the scene.

silverblaze · August 28, 2014 7:16 pm

I agree with Besley (as usual), the emotions were more or less real but for another reason than it seemed. Maybe he used it for his acting but some of it was real. He also said in TEH that it was more Mycroft's idea, implying that he didn't really like it. Though we don't know if that's true.

I don't think it really matters. Moftiss often prioritise plot over character, I don't really have a problem with that. That's how they keep the surprises coming.

La Jolie · August 28, 2014 7:20 pm

I subscribe to the interpretation that while Sherlock was hell-bent on making John believe in the illusion of Sherlock's suicide, he also felt genuine regret that it would cause John pain and separate them for a long time. I've given up trying to figure out what precisely is real and what is just an act in TRF. I'm angry that we'll never get a proper resolution to the "how did he do it" question. I thought it was OK to wind us up with several different variations in TEH but there really needed to be one final authoritative version in the end, and there wasn't. But I made my peace with the rooftop scene when I started seeing it as a necessary evil for a greater good.

I do get annoyed at Steven Moffat's tendency to monopolise the interpretation of characters and scenes *after* the episode has been filmed. He's a genius and deserves to be worshipped but I do wish he'd just let it stand, and leave us to our own interpretations, once it's been shot and aired. It's nice to have him answer questions and talk about how they came up with things and what alternative versions of events they'd been discussing and all that, but as for actual interpretations of a characters' emotions and motivations, he should really let the episodes speak for themselves.

Back on the tarmac - I've just rewatched HLV and this time around I feel that that whole scene is just bursting at the seams with love and warmth! Isn't that weird? But right now I'm feeling that John and Sherlock knew very well what it was all about and that they're so close by now they just don't need to put it into words or hugs. For me, they don't feel miles apart at all. They feel very close.

What I did notice for the first time is that Sherlock never says good-bye in any way to Mycroft in that scene. No word (except the technical asking-for-a-quiet-moment-with-John), no look, nothing. Weird! I'd love to have been there to hear what they said to each other at Appledore when Sherlock was (presumably) arrested, and when Mycroft told Sherlock what was going to happen to him (MI6 assignment vs. prison). Alas, we'll never know.

Last edited by La Jolie (August 28, 2014 7:28 pm)

SusiGo · August 28, 2014 7:28 pm

I suppose they took care of all that had to be said before they met John and Mary. But, yes, I would love to hear what went on between them.

silverblaze · August 28, 2014 7:48 pm

Me too. I'm also vaguely suspecting that there might be more than meets the eye, especially because Mycroft seemed a little credulous for a genius in HLV.

La Jolie · August 28, 2014 7:56 pm

SusiGo wrote:
I suppose they took care of all that had to be said before they met John and Mary.

That's what's driving me crazy, the fact that they must have talked about it all, and there must have been some sort of "last words" between them, only we never see it!

I feel a fanfic coming on...

Silverblaze, I sometimes have a sneaking suspicion, too, that Mycroft was in on the handing-over-the-laptop scheme. He just had to pretend to his superiors not to have been (therefore had to be drugged along with everyone else) because they wouldn't have approved of it. But then, that doesn't fit in with the conversation outside the Holmes' house about Magnussen not being a dragon for Sherlock to slay...