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August 27, 2014 8:50 pm  #1


December, 1963

OK, somebody put me out of my misery.  What is the significance of the Franki Valli song here? 

It's not a song from John and Mary's era (they'd be too young when it came out).  It might be a song to play for the parents at a wedding, but there aren't any parents there.  Maybe it's just a typical wedding disco song, but it features too heavily for me to believe it was just a random choice.  I don't think the lyrics are applicable to the situation any more than lots of other songs that could have been chosen. 

 

August 27, 2014 8:57 pm  #2


Re: December, 1963

Well, I do not have many ideas about this but this verse struck me: 

You know, I didn't even know her name
But I was never gonna be the same
What a lady, what a night

In HLV we see that John indeed did not know his lady's name. And he does not learn it until the end. Sorry, this is all for the moment. 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

August 27, 2014 9:55 pm  #3


Re: December, 1963

It's not too old a song for Steve Moffat to have heard it at numerous weddings--and of course, the lyrics fit well enough, so it's one that might have lept to his mind.


____________________

"Oh, you meant 'spectacularly ignorant' in a NICE way."
 

August 28, 2014 5:44 am  #4


Re: December, 1963

He's about my age and it was played at school discos all the time.


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August 28, 2014 6:44 am  #5


Re: December, 1963

That's a point.  I thought using "Madonna" in the drunken game seemed as if it was a different age group too - there are more current female celebrities whom Sherlock would see in the news more.   I'm sure there's something else like that.  Maybe it's because the writers are not that far off the actors in age that it gets mixed up.

It's placed so significantly, though and heard so clearly that I think it has to be deliberate, doesn't it? This is the scene that's supposed to be like the Doctor Who episode and I wondered if that was significant - I did check the release dates but December 1963 wasn't released until a couple of years after The Green Death. 

The line about not knowing her name fits.

     Thread Starter
 

August 28, 2014 2:28 pm  #6


Re: December, 1963

Also,

"Oh what a night
Why'd it take so long to see the light
Seems so wrong but now it seems so right
I remember what a night."


*cough cough*     Just saying.


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Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German  
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
    
 
 

August 28, 2014 3:01 pm  #7


Re: December, 1963

Madonna makes sense to me, she was big in the 80s 90s and 00s. Even people with no interest in music at all have heard of her. Never heard that other song though. 

 

August 28, 2014 3:46 pm  #8


Re: December, 1963

Well presumably John and Mary chose it as it was special to them.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

August 28, 2014 9:49 pm  #9


Re: December, 1963

Why would it be special to John and Mary?  I know there could be any reason - it was playing on the radio when they met, or on their first date, or whatever.  But there must be a reason for the writers to have chosen it as a special song for them, as it features so prominently.  Or am I just reading too much into it?

Sherlock claims he just chose the name Madonna from the papers ... of course, she could be in today's papers, but ... I can't explain, it jarred, as if a name had been chosen from the wrong generation.  Something else made me feel the same, not in that episode I don't think, but it's not coming to mind now.  

     Thread Starter
 

August 28, 2014 9:52 pm  #10


Re: December, 1963

I think it has some signifigance because the writers chose it.  But it's not necessarily important to John and Mary.  At all the weddings I've been too once the dancing starts the DJ does have some freedom of choice.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German  
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
    
 
 

August 29, 2014 6:08 am  #11


Re: December, 1963

After sleeping on it, I still don't know about December 1963, but I have some thoughts on the choice of Madonna!

Madonna usually refers to Mary, mother of Jesus.   According to some Christian belief, Mary was conceived free of original sin - the immaculate conception.   And "Mary Morstan" had an "immaculate conception" five years previously. 

Sherlock chooses that name, then says he doesn't know who she is, and waves it away as something in the papers.  But maybe it shows something about his subconscious.  John can't guess it because Sherlock can't tell him anything about Madonna.  Who is she?

So I wonder if this is foreshadowing of what's going to happen with Mary.  The immaculate conception/the false identity.  The pregnancy, obviously.  The presentation of Mary as a virtuous woman (another meaning of madonna).   Maybe the choice of Madonna was much more clever than I thought!

Which makes me think even more that December 1963 has got to be significant too.

     Thread Starter
 

August 29, 2014 6:18 am  #12


Re: December, 1963

The other sibling's birthdate...
Or is Mary 'the other one'?
No, they'll be as canonical as they can.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

August 29, 2014 9:32 am  #13


Re: December, 1963

Meh, I just think Steve Thompson thought of a random famous person's name. I don't know exactly how old he is, but I think it would fit his age. 

 

August 29, 2014 11:42 am  #14


Re: December, 1963

silverblaze wrote:

Meh, I just think Steve Thompson thought of a random famous person's name. I don't know exactly how old he is, but I think it would fit his age. 

 
So you're saying we shouldn't anylize this to death? 
But, but, that's no fun.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German  
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
    
 
 

August 29, 2014 4:47 pm  #15


Re: December, 1963

Hey, don't spoil it for me!  I was so excited when I woke up this morning thinking that Mary was the immaculate conception!   It's perfectly normal to examine details like this.  Yes, it is.

     Thread Starter
 

August 29, 2014 5:05 pm  #16


Re: December, 1963

What is this "normal" you speak of Liberty?  I know it not.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German  
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
    
 
 

August 29, 2014 5:09 pm  #17


Re: December, 1963

@Liberty and silverblaze
I think when it came to picking a name Sherlock would have chosen for the Rizla game the writers referred to Benedict's encounter with Madonna some time ago when she teased him about his name: "Ooh, yeah, you’re the one with the strange name!" and when he replied something like: "Yes, I am, Madonna."
http://www.benedictcumberbatch.co.uk/interviews/gq-benedict-cumberbatch-outtakes/


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John: "Have you spoken to Mycroft, Molly, uh, anyone?"
Mrs Hudson: "They don’t matter. You do."


I BELIEVE IN SERIES 5!




                                                                                                                  
 

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