BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

Liberty · August 25, 2014 6:21 pm

@Shady, I like your ideas about Christmas. They bring me back again to asking why Sherlock was so desparate for John and Mary to reconcile? He thinks John is safer with Mary than not - is that just because a jilted Mary would be more dangerous? But he also thinks it's vital that John knows Mary is an assassin, which means John might leave her. (Of course, John should be allowed to know what Mary is. But I mean that Sherlock wants him to know urgently). So he thinks John is at risk if he doesn't know and stays with Mary, and if he does know but leaves Mary.

I agree that gambling with Sherlock's life in that way is much the same as murdering him. It was only chance that he survived. I suppose I don't like the idea of Mary gambling in that way. It doesn't seem like her (what little we know of her!). I feel that she should come down on one side or the other. Either aim to kill him, or aim so that he survives. What's the point in leaving it to fate? What could she gain from that? A gamble just makes her a bad assassin/murderer . I hope it gets explained properly in S4.

Why is Mary so sure that Magnusson won't spill her secret? Is it because she knows it gives him power over her? (And therefore John, and therefore Sherlock and therefore Mycroft - does she know that?) Or does she think he's scared of her? He's certainly not scared at the end of HLV, and if he really was scared he'd maybe have used his information earlier to get rid of her. I have a feeling that she doesn't know he doesn't have vaults, and so she wants to keep him alive until she gets back her "file" and also she needs a witness so that John isn't a suspect ... but why does she trust him?

Last edited by Liberty (August 25, 2014 6:32 pm)

ShadyShapeshifter · August 25, 2014 7:01 pm

@ Jenosborn
What darker themes would you suggest? What could possibly happen to change John’s priorities? His daughter will always be his top priority, no matter what. What could Mary do in order not to be his priority anymore? I could only imagine her leaving. But even if she did, if she ended up in trouble, he would always come to help her. She already did shoot Sherlock and yet John seemingly failed to get the message I think that conveyed.
Concerning Mycroft, I think you’re quite right. We simply can’t completely figure him out, can we? The only thing we do know is that he, in his own way, cares for Sherlock. His brother’s loss would break his heart, right? He even went undercover for him, which is indeed very telling. So I guess you’re right, he might just play his cards coolly. I simply never know what to expect from him, except that he will always try and save his brother’s life. But knowing that Mary did once gamble with Sherlock’s life, there’s always the chance she might do it again. I don’t know, I maybe just expected him to do something about it. She is a liability, isn’t she?
@Liberty
So, why do you think that he wanted Mary and John to reconcile? You think he had some ulterior motives? What could these possibly be? I’m really curious
My first impression was that he wanted John to be happy and safe. Mary seems to be a logical fit for him: she said and acted like she would do anything at all to preserve her relationship with John, which means that she would do anything to protect his life. That seems to be something he can relate with. She cares for John, ergo is no threat to him, and even likes Sherlock. He doesn’t seem to be bothered by the fact that she nearly killed him, that’s not his priority. John was happy with Marry, and Mary would do anything for her relationship with John. Plus, she is pregnant with John’s child and John surely wants to take care of his daughter. So in Sherlock’s world, why shouldn’t he try and reconcile them? Mary can provide and put up with John’s “adrenaline thing”, can and will do anything to protect John and make their relationship work and likes Sherlock. The fact that she doesn’t care about Sherlock doesn’t count for him and John seems to fail to see it. There you go, happy threesome, but very sad to me.
I think not being able to decide whether to kill Sherlock or not seems adequate for Mary. She couldn’t quite let go of her past, she is a trained assassin, so her first instinct must have been to shoot the witness. Yet she didn’t. She really cares for John, but she can’t just be Mary Watson. She wasn’t willing to take the risk straight away that John could reject her. She hasn’t absolutely changed and is now just a harmless wife. She’s something in between and that seems to determine her actions. She is not simply black or white. Would she be black, she would have killed Sherlock. Would she be white, she wouldn’t have shot him. She’s grey and so she wanders a fine line. She shot Sherlock, yet give him a chance to survive. That makes her neither totally evil nor totally nice. She’s both, trained assassin and in a relationship that means something to her. So she goes for chance. Bad assassin if you think about it? Definitely, the assassin would have killed the witness. Bad Friend? Again, yes, a friend wouldn’t have shot at all. Quite contradictory, but I don’t think we will get any other answer in season 4. I think they are going to develop the relationship without mentioning this incident again. Just like with the fall, people can always like Sherlock’s idea or create their own version of cannon that may or may not be consistent with what is shown.

SusiGo · August 25, 2014 7:09 pm

I am not sure if they will go again for an ambiguous explanation. They did this once and many people did not like it. And the discussion about Mary has in a way split the fandom. Of course they like to make us think and keep some things in the dark but I doubt that they will take that path with Mary.
Because they will have to choose how to proceed with her. It is possible that Mary is connected to Moriarty or Mycroft or has another hidden agenda. Just look at her face at the end of HLV when Moriarty "returns".
(Wow, this is hard. Me trying to argue without introducing my views on Sherlock's and John's relationship . But a good exercise).

Last edited by SusiGo (August 25, 2014 7:14 pm)

Schmiezi · August 25, 2014 7:16 pm

Well done, you!

SusiGo · August 25, 2014 7:17 pm

Thanks, dear.

ShadyShapeshifter · August 25, 2014 7:37 pm

@SusiGo
Yes, there are many ways they could go with the character, I absolutely agree.
In my eyes, though, her only possible way besides gray would be the black side. I can’t imagine her being in league with Mycroft. Mycroft does seem to care about Sherlock, would he really go along with a person that nearly killed his brother? If he knew everything and he seems to be quite all-knowing some times, wouldn’t he have anticipated that Mary could possibly turn on Sherlock when driven into a corner? For me, she lost the possibility to be really white, when she shot Sherlock. (Not to mention that a trained assassin has a very questionable past, but let’s go for second chances. Maybe she really wanted to change, but shooting Sherlock seems to me the proof that she hasn’t completely.)
Maybe she was in league with Moriarty (another thousand theories about this character, just tell me to shut up, if I’m writing too much ) or has another agenda, but I still think that nowadays she cares for John. Which means that she isn’t completely dark, is she? She could always turn on her possible “bosses” or plans if it meant protecting John’s life. That I would call ambiguous. Do you think that she doesn’t care about John at all? Because if she would turn on John, then I could see her completely on the “dark side”. Or go and murder innocents or something like that, again if she really worked for Moriarty, she just might. Do you think that’s where her character is going?
Anyway, it might turn out, that she is indeed black and not grey. I guess that depends on what her agenda will turn out to be in season 4. For now, she seems grey to me, but perhaps she turns out to be one of the villains next seasons. Do you think that’s where they’re heading?
Btw, may I ask what your take on the relationship is? Johnlock? Just curious

Liberty · August 25, 2014 7:37 pm

At first I thought that Sherlock wanted John and Mary to reconcile because of his vow to the three of them in TSOT. But I don't think that's it, and I don't think it's because he thinks Mary is good for John. (Because she isn't, particularly. He loves her, but he's bored and fed up while he's with her, and I'm not even saying that to bash Mary's character - I think it's also John who pushes himself into that position while with her).

Sherlock seems to be genuinely scared of Mary and believe that she's dangerous. The risk to John would surely outweigh a vow on his part, or even thinking that John and Mary were good together.

So yes, I think Sherlock must have ulterior motives. The only thing I can think is that he thinks John is safer while with her, but I'm not sure why that would be. That could be because Mary will protect John at any cost. It might also be that Mary would be more of a risk to John if he left her. I've gone back and forth between the two. The mind palace scene leans to the latter, I think. And his desparate need to get out of hospital and put himself through pain to the point of collapse shows that it's really important - maybe life or death.

The story about Mary not trying to kill Sherlock - we get that from Sherlock, not Mary. I get the impression (maybe wrongly) that Sherlock is trying to convince Mary that's what he believes, for his own and John's safety. (Although he does test out the accuracy of her shooting which might suggest that he believes it).

I really hope it's all explained in S4. I want answers! But goodie, or baddie, I don't see an ongoing story with Mary and a child. I don't think it's going to be happy families.

SusiGo · August 25, 2014 7:40 pm

ShadyShapeshifter wrote:
@SusiGo
Yes, there are many ways they could go with the character, I absolutely agree.
In my eyes, though, her only possible way besides gray would be the black side. I can’t imagine her being in league with Mycroft. Mycroft does seem to care about Sherlock, would he really go along with a person that nearly killed his brother? If he knew everything and he seems to be quite all-knowing some times, wouldn’t he have anticipated that Mary could possibly turn on Sherlock when driven into a corner? For me, she lost the possibility to be really white, when she shot Sherlock. (Not to mention that a trained assassin has a very questionable past, but let’s go for second chances. Maybe she really wanted to change, but shooting Sherlock seems to me the proof that she hasn’t completely.)
Maybe she was in league with Moriarty (another thousand theories about this character, just tell me to shut up, if I’m writing too much ) or has another agenda, but I still think that nowadays she cares for John. Which means that she isn’t completely dark, is she? She could always turn on her possible “bosses” or plans if it meant protecting John’s life. That I would call ambiguous. Do you think that she doesn’t care about John at all? Because if she would turn on John, then I could see her completely on the “dark side”. Or go and murder innocents or something like that, again if she really worked for Moriarty, she just might. Do you think that’s where her character is going?
Anyway, it might turn out, that she is indeed black and not grey. I guess that depends on what her agenda will turn out to be in season 4. For now, she seems grey to me, but perhaps she turns out to be one of the villains next seasons. Do you think that’s where they’re heading?
Btw, may I ask what your take on the relationship is? Johnlock? Just curious

I have no Mycroft theory whatsoever, it was just an example. The strange thing is that until the end they never meet each other. Mycroft simply accepting what happened to his brother? Or not knowing about the shooter? Highly improbable.

As for John - I think she loves him in her twisted, egocentric way. Which is a completely different kind of love from the one Sherlock shows for John.
And, yes, Johnlock.

Liberty: yes to all this.

Last edited by SusiGo (August 25, 2014 7:41 pm)

ShadyShapeshifter · August 25, 2014 8:09 pm

Exactly, Mycroft’s behavior also left me with a big question mark. He absolutely has to know that Mary shot Sherlock and yet he doesn’t seem to do anything about it. What is his master plan in this?
I do agree that Mary loves John in her own strange way and I absolutely agree that it can’t be compared with Sherlock’s love for John. They have a unique relationship anyway. And her way of caring is very questionable in my eyes, but the does care in her own way.
I agree with you, liberty, that one of Sherlock’s ulterior motives could be that Mary would keep John safe at any cost. Seems more than logical to me at this point.
I can’t wrap my head around it that he would think Mary could turn out to be a danger to John, if he left her. You have a point that there are indications for that, too. The mind palace and the “outing” at all costs seem to indicate that there are high risks involved somehow. But I can’t believe that Sherlock would leave London without some kind of warning for John if he believed John could be in danger from her. In exile he couldn’t keep an eye on them. If Mary was dangerous for John, he should have made some precautions, right? What if Mary herself grew bored of the relationship or something? I think for now, I’m more inclined to believe the first one.
I also don’t think they will have an ongoing happy family thing with a child. But I fear there might be one or two episodes indicating something like this. John seems to be "in a good place" with Mary at the end of HLV (sadly), so I’m more than curious how they will resolve this “threesome”. Must start with something like domestic bliss, mustn’t it? They have to let Mary do something in order to move the storyline along which means that in the meantime, John and Mary will live as a “happy” couple (onscreen or off) until something happens with her character, right? So incredibly sad…

SusiGo · August 25, 2014 8:14 pm

Well, the writers said that "The only thing to expect is the unexpected". This cannot just be domestic bliss chez Watsons, can it?

ShadyShapeshifter · August 25, 2014 8:17 pm

Ultimately not, of course. But for some maybe even offscreen time, it will, won't it? Even that little time bothers me, though. I really want John to be happy and all, but this threesome doesn't sit right with me.

SusiGo · August 25, 2014 8:27 pm

I fully agree with you. The idea as such pains me. And I really cannot believe that they will change the dynamic in this regard because the writers and actors have always stressed that the show is about Sherlock and John, that their relationship is at the core of the success. And there are quite a lot of people - and not just Johnlockers - who do not want to see this threesome become a regular feature of the show.

Last edited by SusiGo (August 25, 2014 8:27 pm)

jenosborn · August 25, 2014 8:28 pm

ShadyShapeshifter wrote:
@ Jenosborn
What darker themes would you suggest? What could possibly happen to change John’s priorities? His daughter will always be his top priority, no matter what. What could Mary do in order not to be his priority anymore? I could only imagine her leaving. But even if she did, if she ended up in trouble, he would always come to help her. She already did shoot Sherlock and yet John seemingly failed to get the message I think that conveyed.

- Something Bad could happen to his daughter (kidnapping? death?), and Mary
might cause it. That would likely re-align John's priorities back to Sherlock.

- Something Bad could happen to John - which may manifest itself in
behavioral or mental issues/changes.   That may re-align John's priorities
away from his family and Sherlock.      (He may be faced with some dark
heart wrenching catch-22 type decision-making ahead, and it will be fascinating to see
how he deals with it.)

Sherlock does think John is safer with Mary around for now, but
that may change too.   He defends her, due to John, but I believe
something is afoot with him already about how he believes
things will play out with Mary on a criminal connection level.
And I agree, although I do want Mary gone (it's Canon),
I am looking forward to the creative way that will happen.

ShadyShapeshifter · August 25, 2014 8:57 pm

No, of course they won't change the dynamic, no one would want to see that. But for the time being, at least for John it seems to be a sort of happy threesome. His wife, his best friend and him. It won't last, yes, but will John notice that this threesome was unbalanced?

What is a catch-22 type decision?
I agree, depending on Mary's further developement, Sherlocks view of her may change and very fast. Who knows what she will be doing next season? I definitely didn't expect her to shoot Sherlock, for whatever reason, that came as a shock to me. So I bet, i will be quite surprised next season

REReader · August 25, 2014 9:26 pm

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
REReader wrote:
It seemed to me glaring obvious that, in HLV, Sherlock sees Mary as very like himself, and for John to reject Mary would feel to Sherlock as a rejection of himself--and that he sees Mary's actions as what he would have done in the same position. I'll go along with Sherlock.
On the other hand, Sherlock also sees himself as Moriarty, right? He keeps Moriarty chained and straightjacketed in a padded cell in the dungeon of his Mind Palace. He was *terrified* of Moriarty. So, I'd say he's not adverse to rejecting a part of himself at all.

Actually, no. He sees a PART of himself as having tendencies in that direction, so he locks that away. But with Mary... Remember "That would be me, hello"? He specifically and unambiguously drew a parallel between himself and Mary, and he kept pushing it.

There is also the fact that Mofftiss DO refer back continually to the ACD canon, quite a bit more than is at first glance apparent--and in canon, Watson was happily married at least once (and if you pay attention to the internal dates in the stories, twice and maybe three times), and moved back in with Holmes only after "his sad loss" AND after Holmes asked him to do so (and to sell his practice). Before that, during his first marriage, there were literally years of cases, not even including the Hiatus. I'm not looking to see Mary disappear anytime soon--and when she does, it will likely be a "sad loss."

Last edited by REReader (August 25, 2014 9:27 pm)

SusiGo · August 25, 2014 9:30 pm

But canon Mary was very different from Sherlock Mary. And I cannot see her fading into the background like canon Mary did. I am sure they will come up with a very different story. Look how they changed Moriarty - apart from him being Sherlock's archenemy and a master criminal and him dying while Sherlock survives there is hardly any similarity. And I am sure the same goes for Mary Watson.

Last edited by SusiGo (August 25, 2014 9:33 pm)

REReader · August 25, 2014 10:05 pm

SusiGo wrote:
But canon Mary was very different from Sherlock Mary. And I cannot see her fading into the background like canon Mary did. I am sure they will come up with a very different story. Look how they changed Moriarty - apart from him being Sherlock's archenemy and a master criminal and him dying while Sherlock survives there is hardly any similarity. And I am sure the same goes for Mary Watson.

But "him being Sherlock's archenemy and a master criminal and him dying while Sherlock survives"--those are the important elements of Moriarty in the stories; the rest is just window dressing.

I do agree that canon Mary is different from the BBC Mary--and she both has to be, and isn't as different as she seems. Mofftiss (especially Moffat) took HUGE amounts of criticism over the lack of strong female characters in the series, and really, canon Mary was unbelievably saintly and retiring, especially after Holmes praised canon Mary at the end of The Sign of Four:

"I think she is one of the most charming young ladies I ever met and might have been most useful in such work as we have been doing. She had a decided genius that way; witness the way in which she preserved that Agra plan from all the other papers of her father."

Of course, in Victorian England, canon Mary couldn't be part of adventures, especially not as a married woman (although she might have gotten away with it as a fabulously wealthy single woman--then it would have been excused as eccentricity). So really the BBC Mary is a perfect modern incarnation of a person Holmes considered very fit for detection. Nowadays, however, a smart, savvy women with talents that well fit her for detection could very well take part in the adventures--which may be the reason for the pregnancy, and for her now owing Sherlock (and John); otherwise it would be extremely misogynistic of the men to leave her out, and enormously out of character for her to consent to be left out.

ShadyShapeshifter · August 25, 2014 10:21 pm

I agree with SusiGo on that. This Mary is way more complex than cannon Mary seems to be (I never read the books, so I can just go with what I read so far, please correct me, if I’m completely off the rails).
I honestly can’t imagine a character shooting Sherlock Holmes and really getting away with it. There simply has to be some sort of twist next season, right? A version of ongoing domestic bliss wouldn’t sit right with me. If she hadn’t shot Sherlock, yes, I could have pictured domestic bliss for the Watsons for some episodes. Of course, ultimately, it wouldn’t last, but there could have been 2 episodes, where John would live happily with Mary and still be solving crimes with Sherlock. That’s what happens in the books, right? I just can’t imagine this anymore. This Mary leaves room for so many ways this series could go on, but domestic bliss shouldn’t be one of them. She nearly killed Sherlock, and purposefully so. I am convinced that she willingly took the risk that he might die, so I really hope they don’t go for domestic bliss and John mourning yet again. They could, surely, but like SusiGo said, they seem to alter the characters and this Mary doesn’t seem to be the type to be fading into the background after everything they did with her character this season. Why have her shooting Sherlock? If they wanted a believable reason for her not to take part in the adventures, the pregnancy would have done that for me. (Although I have to admit that they didn’t need to show me a reason for that *cough*. Pregnant or not, I wouldn’t want the solving crimes trio, so I would have been fine with her staying at home without any reason at all. She could still be smart and independent and all that without wanting to participate in Sherlock’s and John’s adventures, right?)
But I’m open for every possible discussion about this show, I will always try and point out why I think the way I think. Have to pass the time till next season, right? I’m honestly kind of glad that it took me so long to get to know this show. Long pauses between seasons of shows I am excited about are just sooooooo cruel Hmm, kind of off topic, sorry. It’s been a while since I was this exited about a show.

Ah, by the way, I have to clarify something concerning my view of Mary's character. I do think that they have to decide which way to go with her. She could turn out to be anything they like her to be next season. Maybe she stays the way she seems to be right now, maybe she turns out to be a villain. But to me, no matter what they do with her the following series, I don't think that my view of her shooting could possibly be altered. No matter her motivation, background, master plan or anything like that. In that moment in Magnussons room, in my opinion, she left Sherlock's life to chance. She could have easily killed him, yet she didn't. Even after shooting him in the chest, if she really wanted to kill him, she could have just shot him in the head. In that distance, she couldn't miss and a second shot wouldn't have worsend her chances to escape. No headshot, but, she did shoot him. If she really wanted Sherlock to survive, she wouldn't have shot him in the chest. If you do not approve eventually of the death of the person, you don't shoot them like that. There are just so many possible ways that the person could die anyway, no matter the intentions. We even saw that, Sherlock flat lined and almost died. It was mere chance and willpower that he survived. So if she was a decent shot and indeed a trained assasin, she calculated the risk and took it. It could have turned out either way, she ensured none of the both ways. So, no matter what she planned, no mater wo she is involved with, no matter how she ends up next season (for better or worse), I still bvelieve that in that moment, she did indeed gamble with Sherlock's life. The way she shot him, she couldn't guarantee the outcome. That's all I meant by her being grey. Just for that moment, I am convinced that she was neither black nor white. She didn't go for the immediate kill, but the did take the risk that Sherlock wouldn't survive.

Last edited by ShadyShapeshifter (August 25, 2014 10:53 pm)

REReader · August 26, 2014 1:07 am

ShadyShapeshifter wrote:
In that moment in Magnussons room, in my opinion, she left Sherlock's life to chance. She could have easily killed him, yet she didn't. Even after shooting him in the chest, if she really wanted to kill him, she could have just shot him in the head. In that distance, she couldn't miss and a second shot wouldn't have worsend her chances to escape. [...] That's all I meant by her being grey. Just for that moment, I am convinced that she was neither black nor white. She didn't go for the immediate kill, but the did take the risk that Sherlock wouldn't survive.

ITA with this.

Liberty · August 26, 2014 6:09 am

Or take the risk that he would survive. Maybe sentiment stopped her destroying that beautiful brain. Because I think the plan that Sherlock outlines isn't a good one. OK, Mary was having to think quickly. But shooting not to kill, meant that Sherlock could so easily have told John what happened. It might take care of the immediate problem, but still leaves the problem of Sherlock being a witness. In fact, Sherlock tried to tell John as soon he regained consciousness. Mary wasn't able to predict when that would be and stop him or threaten him. So while it seems that Sherlock just said her name, he could so easily have said more. And he did say more, once he'd set up a safe way to do it. I suppose it did give her time, but it was extremely risky (if that's what she'd planned).

Another point is that if Sherlock died, Magnusson would have been guilty of perverting the course of justice (or whatever the charge would be) in a murder case. As it is, he's only guilty of doing it in an attempted murder case. He seems to be above the law, so it's not a big concern for him (and no doubt, the fact that he was under threat would be taken into consideration), but it's interesting that it's more important for him to be able to use the information that Mary's the assassin than it is to get her convicted and make himself safe. None of them want Mary convicted.

I wonder why Sherlock is so sure that she won't shoot, though? I suppose he's just not working fast enough and he still thinks she's the Mary he knows. I wondered about the perfume too. He's so sure it's not Mary, which is a little not Sherlockian of him, and believes Lady Smallwood would dress as an assassin and abseil in through windows (or however Mary got in). Maybe he's just not very good at this when he comes to people close to him. There have been clues about Mary all along ("liar", no guests from more than 5 years ago, the telegram) so he must have suspected something ... but not that? In fact, he says John was attracted to her because she was dangerous - if that was there to see, Sherlock would have seen it too, (Although, I think that could be another thing she tells John).

Last edited by Liberty (August 26, 2014 6:11 am)