I just simply think we do not know all the facts about Maey yet and so I don't feel I can make a conclusive assessment of her.
I am with her at the moment, but we'll have to see what happens next time.

One thing: During the hiatuses followings seasons 1 & 2, people had no problem making all sorts of assumptions about John and Sherlock, particularly after TRF, or so it seemed to me; and some of those assumptions still persist today in fandom and in fanfic. We (generally speaking) still have folks that believe that Sherlock is a high-functioning sociopath, though the shows narrative clearly disproves that notion, that Sherlock was just off on a lark, assumtions that he could have cared less about John's feelings, now we have people who assume that Sherlock *loves* Mary, that all is forgiven-- but they have trouble speculating that Mary might not end up as a symapthetic, non-vilianous character. I could be wrong, but I suspect that sometimes, when we really want to like a character, we will go a looooong way to give them the benefit of the doubt. 

Funny, I never saw it that way. I'm with those who say that for John rejecting Mary could be dangerous and therefore Sherlock wants him to stay with her.

REReader wrote:

It seemed to me glaring obvious that, in HLV, Sherlock sees Mary as very like himself, and for John to reject Mary would feel to Sherlock as a rejection of himself--and that he sees Mary's actions as what he would have done in the same position. I'll go along with Sherlock.

On the other hand, Sherlock also sees himself as Moriarty, right? He keeps Moriarty chained and straightjacketed in a padded cell in the dungeon of his Mind Palace. He was *terrified* of Moriarty. So, I'd say he's not adverse to rejecting a part of himself at all. 

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (August 25, 2014 6:18 am)

REReader wrote:

It seemed to me glaring obvious that, in HLV, Sherlock sees Mary as very like himself, and for John to reject Mary would feel to Sherlock as a rejection of himself--and that he sees Mary's actions as what he would have done in the same position. I'll go along with Sherlock.

Sorry, but this feels totally wrong to me. So you think if Sherlock had felt threatened by Mary although she offered to help him he would have shot and nearly killed her to keep John in the dark about his doings? This does in no way fit with the Sherlock we are presented with in series 3 as he keeps doing exactly the opposite - choosing John's wellbeing and security over his own. 
 

Well, I think it's been made very clear that Sherlock is a good person.   You can trust him always to do the right thing.   (I think John senses that about Sherlock early on, even though he has doubts).  Killing Magnusson is extreme, but he has plenty of "good" reason to do it.  We know that.  But it does show that he can do something outwardly evil if there's a strong enough need to protect other people.  He does give the reason earlier that he hates Magnusson for preying on people who are different.  Similarly, he thought Moriarty was a risk to people in TRF.  But the driving reason, I think, is protecting people close to him, not people in general.   It's personal.

The trouble with Mary, I think, is that we don't really know her motivations, for sure.  Really frustratingly, we don't see Sherlock being able to deduce anything about her beyond "liar", which is no change from when he first met her.   Like Sherlock, she shoots an unarmed man, but seems to have much less noble motivations.  We're assuming her motivations are to keep her secret from John - that's more or less what she says herself.  But is there something else?  Is she actually protecting people other than herself?  John?  It's kind of hard to believe, but I'm thinking about that "guardian" clue (surely means the newspaper, but has to have a double meaning, or why put it in?).  She is pregnant, I suppose, so could see protecting herself as protecting her baby.   It's hinted that she's another who will be dead in 6 months if the truth comes out, so secrecy is a matter of a life and death.   I do keep wondering if she's going to be turned back into a "good" character in S4 (although I think it's more likely she's going to be the villain).

I don't think Sherlock sees Mary as a kindred spirit, but for some reason he wants John to see that.  He's scared of her.  But for some reason thinks that John is safer with her around, and safer if Mary's secret is kept.  Because he could just have let Magnusson go and that would have got Mary out of the way, and yes, John would be heartbroken, but safe, you would think.  Instead, he's leaving John alone with Mary, with no protection from Sherlock, while Sherlock goes off to face his own death.   (I don't think shooting Magnusson is a sudden decision - he appears to think it through, and then wait for witnesses.  I thought at first that he did because he thought John might do it, but watching it again, I can see he's planning it when he finds out there are no vaults.  He's planning it, wants witnesses and knows what the consequences will be).  There has to be a very, very good reason for him to put John in that apparently risky position. 

Last edited by Liberty (August 25, 2014 8:00 am)

SusiGo wrote:

I agree with most of what you say. And this ambiguity surrounding Mary and her past and motivation for me is the main difference compared to the other series. It is a very different sort of cliffhanger. We knew that Moriarty was the villain, there was no doubt about that.

That's so true, there are so many things we know nothing or almost nothing about... But the fact that Mofftiss decided to have Mary stay pretty quiet about herself and her past, even in the scene in 221B in HLV, also is a way of characterizing her. They made the decision to leave so many things about her in the dark, and of course there is a reason for that. Each member of the audience has to decide for himself/herself how much credit he/she wants to give Mary. And I suppose that some of us will be more surprised than others when the Special and S4 finally air...

 
 

Last edited by SolarSystem (August 25, 2014 10:19 am)

It is true that Sherlock keeps quiet about his motivations and plans. The difference is that - provided the writers stay in accordance with canon - Sherlock has no criminal past and is generally on the side of the angels. Based on what we know so far this does not apply to Mary. 

Yes, the scene is very frustrating and I tend to change my opinon once a week. But for me it is neither in character for John to accept all that for the sake of love. Remember how often he criticised Sherlock for lack of tact or social niceties, things are mere trivialities compared to multiple killings . From the beginning he is presented as a deeply moral character and I cannot believe that he would accept these things in anyone, not even his wife and mother of his child. Of course one may argue that he seems to accept Sherlock shooting Magnussen. But there we are again weighing the killing of the cabbie, Magnussen, and Mary's assassination jobs against each other. 

Yes, I agree that there is more to the stick. Everything you mention and the fact that the sticks do not always look identical on top. Of course this might be negligence of the prop department. But today I read  a post about each episode having its own planned colour scheme so I cannot for the life of me believe that they just mixed up the sticks. 

Good point. This sentence always strikes me as odd. It is not exactly the introduction for a heartfelt declaration. For example compare this to John's honest words at the grave … so we know he can do such a speech if he wants to. But of course it makes sense to prepare and learn them by heart. Btw, the "privilege thing" also seems a bit stiff and formal to me. This is not something the John Watson we know would say. Just think of his banter with Mary from the other episodes.