BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mary's Death

ancientsgate · August 18, 2014 1:08 am

The show is called Sherlock, so we can be 100% sure that any new footage will always have him as the #1 central character. And so far, the writers haven't given us an iota of an idea that John's character will be put on the back burner, ever. And aside from all that, Martin Freeman is now a big internationally acclaimed move and TV star, they'll be paying him the big bucks to come back to Sherlock, and I can't imagine their doing that and then sticking him in Siberia with a wife and baby, while Sherlock and Lestrade (or somebody) run cases in London. To me anyway, this will always be the Sherlock and John Show. heh

SolarSystem · August 18, 2014 7:22 am

Absolutely agree, ag.
Apart from the fact that anything else would be quite far away from canon - and with the baby we are far away from canon already anyway - it's just not what I would be interested to see. The dynamics have already changed in S3, with John not living in 221B any longer, and quite frankly I don't need anymore of that. The Sherlock and John Show, with some interesting and at times quite important characters like Lestrade, Molly and Mrs. Hudson chiming in from time to time, that about sums it up for me.

mrshouse · August 18, 2014 7:23 am

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
I keep feeling like there's a real push to have more of a "Family Show" element to the show; fluffy, sweet interactions with babies and puppies and, basically the end result of a romantic fantasy

I'd also like this to happen without it having anything to do with Sherlock-- for once, I'd like to see him not be blamed for John's misfortune. ;-) I'd really rather see him in the role of supportive freind-- because he wants to, not to appease his guilt/try to make ammends. I think that dynamic might go a long way towards healing their relationship (however you want to see it ) in the eys of the viewers.

As for the first, to be honest, that is one of the last things that I would like to see. If I want family bliss I watch very different shows.
The not blaming Sherlock for just anything I second, third and fourth that!

mrshouse · August 18, 2014 7:26 am

Swanpride wrote:
I don't think that John and Sherlock are really apart...just because they don't life at the same place anymore doesn't mean that they can't see each other anymore. And I would like to see the writers exploring the new dynamic a little bit more.

I felt they couldn't be farther away from each other in heart and soul. They were definitely uncomfortable, very sad, barely holding themselves together. And it is a matter of taste if not living together is an interesting new dynamic or just feels plainly wrong.

SusiGo · August 18, 2014 7:40 am

Could not agree more, mrshouse.

SolarSystem · August 18, 2014 9:01 am

Same here. I really wonder why people tend to think that "new dynamics" are automatically a good thing. In this case it just felt terribly wrong to me. If this continues, the show will not be the same anymore and evolve into something different. But I assume that our 'fan boys' know exactly what ACD's intentions were, and since Billy Wilder's movie means so much to them...

SusiGo · August 18, 2014 9:04 am

Yes. For the life of me I cannot see Mark and Steven turn the show onto its head like that.

Germansherlockfan · August 18, 2014 10:45 am

SolarSystem wrote:
And I'm afraid that I sincerely hope it won't happen, because even if you probably didn't mean it that way, it sounds too much like a soap opera to me. Baby Watson drops by in 221B for a visit on a regular basis...? Whatever happens to the baby (and Mary, for that matter), that is something I definitely don't want to see.
Apart from that, it's probably too far away from canon anyway.

You are right, I definitely didn´t mean it in a soap opera kind of way and I actually don´t want to see Baby or Toddler Watson on a regular basis. I just don´t want either Mary or the baby getting killed because I like them and I don´t want John to go through another phase of terrible loss and grieving. And maybe I´m a little biased because I have to deal with divorce and visitation rights in RL every day, so it´s a normal and ordinary part of life for me. And as I said before I found the interaction between Sherlock and Archie very funny and thought one or two moments between Sherlock and Child Watson would give the show some more opportunities for its wit and humour. I know it´s a show about a detective and and in my opinion the cases, their solving and the developpment of its two main characters should always be the first priority too.

Last edited by Germansherlockfan (August 18, 2014 10:54 am)

tonnaree · August 18, 2014 1:11 pm

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
Swanpride wrote:
I don't think that John and Sherlock are really apart...just because they don't life at the same place anymore doesn't mean that they can't see each other anymore. And I would like to see the writers exploring the new dynamic a little bit more.
That could be interesting: John would have to stop being backup for Sherlock; it's too irresponible to put oneself in danger when you have a family to support--sooooo--- maybe we get to see more Lestrade, Billy Wiggins and Molly -- and , inevitably much less of John; say mostly on a social basis-- not really having much to do with cases at all. But, sure-- I could see little vignettes of John, Mary and Baby doing family stuff, and John getting a moment to textor call Sherlock. And, I'll bet you-- that the first episode of the 4th series is going to be exactly that.

No. Just no.

ancientsgate · August 18, 2014 1:24 pm

SolarSystem wrote:
Absolutely agree, ag.
Apart from the fact that anything else would be quite far away from canon - and with the baby we are far away from canon already anyway - it's just not what I would be interested to see. The dynamics have already changed in S3, with John not living in 221B any longer, and quite frankly I don't need anymore of that. The Sherlock and John Show, with some interesting and at times quite important characters like Lestrade, Molly and Mrs. Hudson chiming in from time to time, that about sums it up for me.

There's a danger of soap opera with Mary and the baby. As long as Mary is a misunderstood badass with a sketchy past and an air of mystery, her character fits right in to the premise of Sherlock, which is after all supposed to be a "story about a detective". But as a new mom with a baby in diapers, stringing along her hapless husband, who would rather be in bed with his best male friend, well, that's soap opera, and I just don't see the showrunners going there. Please, god, don't let them go there.

ancientsgate · August 18, 2014 1:25 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Yes. For the life of me I cannot see Mark and Steven turn the show onto its head like that.

Me, either. Not under any circumstances.

SolarSystem · August 18, 2014 7:45 pm

Swanpride wrote:
Also, new dynamics are not always a good thing, but resetting characters is nearly always a bad decision. John and Sherlock have to develop forwards, not backwards.

I could be wrong, but I think nobody here wished for Sherlock and John to develop backwards. Even if John moves back into 221B, it won't be the same as in S1/S2, that just wouldn't make any sense. It would feel familiar and very different at the same time, if handled accordingly.

As for Moriarty vs Mary: We saw next to nothing from Moriarty in S3, so there isn't all that much to discuss really. We don't have very much to go on in a discussion about whether or not he is alive. In contrast to that we saw a lot of Mary throughout those three episodes, so it's kind of logical that there is more to discuss about her.

Last edited by SolarSystem (August 18, 2014 7:49 pm)

RavenMorganLeigh · August 18, 2014 8:00 pm

tonnaree wrote:
RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
Swanpride wrote:
I don't think that John and Sherlock are really apart...just because they don't life at the same place anymore doesn't mean that they can't see each other anymore. And I would like to see the writers exploring the new dynamic a little bit more.
That could be interesting: John would have to stop being backup for Sherlock; it's too irresponible to put oneself in danger when you have a family to support--sooooo--- maybe we get to see more Lestrade, Billy Wiggins and Molly -- and , inevitably much less of John; say mostly on a social basis-- not really having much to do with cases at all. But, sure-- I could see little vignettes of John, Mary and Baby doing family stuff, and John getting a moment to textor call Sherlock. And, I'll bet you-- that the first episode of the 4th series is going to be exactly that.

No. Just no.

(Chuckles) I'm not suggesting that I'd like to see the above scenario; I'm saying though, if we make Mary, John and The Baby a focus of the show, that's almost what's going to have to happen with the characters.

The show is called "Sherlock", not "Raising Baby Watson", with Sherlock as eccentric uncle.

Personally, I want John and Sherlock back together at Baker Street.

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (August 18, 2014 8:01 pm)

mrshouse · August 19, 2014 7:24 am

SolarSystem wrote:
Swanpride wrote:
Also, new dynamics are not always a good thing, but resetting characters is nearly always a bad decision. John and Sherlock have to develop forwards, not backwards.
I could be wrong, but I think nobody here wished for Sherlock and John to develop backwards. Even if John moves back into 221B, it won't be the same as in S1/S2, that just wouldn't make any sense. It would feel familiar and very different at the same time, if handled accordingly.

I thought about this a lot. And there are two questions bothering me:
What would their dynamics be like without Mary after TRF and the two years of separation? Just to those who keep emphasizing the fresh twist, wouldn't they have lots to deal with emotionally anyway?
And furthermore for Mary being the catalyst for their development forwards what choices are there actually if the little family arises and sticks around? Don't see much space for developing forwards for our two mains there tbh.

SusiGo · August 19, 2014 7:37 am

Your first question: You are right. I think they could have done without Mary and the main reason they included her is that she is canon. It is canon that John gets married. The main difference is - apart from what they did with Mary's character as such - that the marriage comes after the fall, i.e. that John only marries when he allegedly has lost Sherlock for good. This is quite an important point. I do not think she was necessary to bring something new to Sherlock and John's relationship. There would have been enough material to go on - the fall, what they did in those two years, how both of them have changed, the reconciliation - without introducing her.

The other question - I still do not believe that they will go in that direction except one calls a John torn between his family and Sherlock/the casework and occasional visits from Uncle Sherlock a real development. If they show this situation at all, I am sure it will not last for long.

Schmiezi · August 19, 2014 7:05 pm

I think that for making Mary a non-controversial, well-loved character, there would have been "the need to do the "let's get to know each other" part for her and John." And I am sure that the writers were well aware of that. They decided against it, hence IMO they had no intention on making her easily liked.

RavenMorganLeigh · August 19, 2014 7:28 pm

Schmiezi wrote:
I think that for making Mary a non-controversial, well-loved character, there would have been "the need to do the "let's get to know each other" part for her and John." And I am sure that the writers were well aware of that. They decided against it, hence IMO they had no intention on making her easily liked.

Totally agree, which is why it's dfifficult for me to understand the compulsion to make her a long-term, sympathetic main character.

SusiGo · August 19, 2014 7:52 pm

Is there really this compulsion? We have no idea where they are going to take her. And I am not sure that we will see so much of her in the future, at least not as a sympathetic main character.

RavenMorganLeigh · August 19, 2014 8:02 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Is there really this compulsion? We have no idea where they are going to take her. And I am not sure that we will see so much of her in the future, at least not as a sympathetic main character.

Hey, Susi!

I guess I keep hearing folks go on about wanting the middle-class, suburban fantasy for Mary, John and the Baby-- and there's this deluge of Parent!Lock fanfic all over AO3, centered around that very scenario. So, extrapolating from that, yeah, I think there's a large contingent of folks who'd love to see Mary stay, as a main character, and as a Benevolent Mother figure. (scratches head in puzzlement) Go figure.

Mrs.Wenceslas · August 19, 2014 8:02 pm

John loves her and Sherlock trusts her. enough for me to like her....