BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Sherlock and Mary

SusiGo · August 16, 2014 8:54 am

If we believe Sherlock, we also have to believe what we see in his mind palace because these are his thoughts. Moffat could have gone without it but he included the scene deliberately to show us what happens in Sherlock's mind in the moment of death.
He is told to look for something to calm him down. So he turns to the hallway of Roland Kerr College from ASiP, the very place where John once saved his life by shooting the cabbie and keeping him from swallowing the pill.
But whom does he meet? Mary, not Mary in black but Mary the bride shooting him in the chest. I know this is not the anatomical place of the heart but in general viewers may associate the chest with the heart. And then watch his reaction.
They could have done without the symbolism but chose to include it. They chose to make us see him suffering and dying. Someone wrote that what remains after watching HLV are the images of Sherlock dying. And they leave a very strong impression.

besleybean · August 16, 2014 10:02 am

I was with you until the very end...
What do you mean?
Sherlock is very much, alive and well(tho possibly had cried on thr plane) and coming back to fight...who or whatever.

SusiGo · August 16, 2014 10:08 am

Yes, of course he is, and I am very glad about that. I just meant that these image are very powerful if you think about his relationship to Mary.

maryagrawatson · August 16, 2014 3:20 pm

I think that's another thing the writers did to confuse the readers without medical knowledge, making Sherlock's heart stop. Medically speaking, he was never dead and never 'killed by Mary' because he still had strong brain activity. The meta I posted to explains this in greater detail.

So I don't find that image of Mary in the wedding dress shooting Sherlock in the mind palace all that memorable. What sticks in my mind is that a man a week from a major injury, hyped up on morphine, climbed out of a second story window and put together a plan to A) figure out just who his shooter really was and her motives and B) reveal this information to his best friend/the shooter's wife.

Now that I think about it, this could confirm the depth of Sherlock's feelings for Mary. He could have just had the police deal with her, but he cares enough for her to figure this out on his own and help her. Or he's just mining for information to take her down... Gosh, I can't wait to find out what's going to be done with her in future episodes!

Mary

gently69 · August 16, 2014 3:36 pm

maryagrawatson wrote:
Now that I think about it, this could confirm the depth of Sherlock's feelings for Mary. He could have just had the police deal with her, but he cares enough for her to figure this out on his own and help her. Or he's just mining for information to take her down... Gosh, I can't wait to find out what's going to be done with her in future episodes!

Mary

In my "ordinary" opinion I am still convinced that he did all this for John, for John's sake. If his care only was for Mary why involving John then ... letting him know the truth?
Doesn't make sense to me. Would have been much easier to cope with Mary's problems without involving John.

Last edited by gently69 (August 16, 2014 4:05 pm)

tonnaree · August 16, 2014 3:56 pm

maryagrawatson wrote:
I think that's another thing the writers did to confuse the readers without medical knowledge, making Sherlock's heart stop. Medically speaking, he was never dead and never 'killed by Mary' because he still had strong brain activity. The meta I posted to explains this in greater detail.
Mary

Maybe Mary didn't kill Sherlock "medically" but he came as close to death as medically possible without having to change the name of the show to "JOHN."

mrshouse · August 16, 2014 4:00 pm

Or " John and Mary-their life" or "CSI Watson" or ...

SusiGo · August 16, 2014 4:26 pm

maryagrawatson wrote:
So I don't find that image of Mary in the wedding dress shooting Sherlock in the mind palace all that memorable. What sticks in my mind is that a man a week from a major injury, hyped up on morphine, climbed out of a second story window and put together a plan to A) figure out just who his shooter really was and her motives and B) reveal this information to his best friend/the shooter's wife.

Mary

Strangely enough, I do find it memorable because it was a deliberate deviation from the story we see, her in battle dress shooting him.
As for him doing all those things - in my opinion he does them for John. His last thought in his mind palace is "John Watson is definitely in danger". And when he wakes up, his first word is "Mary" because she is the one he regards as dangerous. It is just the continuation of what he said before. And when she threatens him not to tell John, his first instinct is to show John how dangerous she is. IMO he leaves the hospital to make John see her for what she is and to somehow keep him safe.

Last edited by SusiGo (August 16, 2014 4:34 pm)

tobeornot221b · August 16, 2014 5:18 pm

maryagrawatson wrote:
So I don't find that image of Mary in the wedding dress shooting Sherlock in the mind palace all that memorable.

You don't find it memorable, but Sherlock does nevertheless.
Mary in her wedding dress of all things is in Sherlock's mind palace for a very good reason. It's a reminder of the vow he's made to her, John and the baby. If that vow of his hadn't existed he would maybe have reacted differently after woken up in the hospital. Called Lestrade or Mycroft, for example...

SolarSystem · August 16, 2014 5:30 pm

tonnaree wrote:
maryagrawatson wrote:
I think that's another thing the writers did to confuse the readers without medical knowledge, making Sherlock's heart stop. Medically speaking, he was never dead and never 'killed by Mary' because he still had strong brain activity. The meta I posted to explains this in greater detail.
Mary
Maybe Mary didn't kill Sherlock "medically" but he came as close to death as medically possible without having to change the name of the show to "JOHN."

Furthermore, 'medically speaking' Sherlock might not have been dead, but when it comes to the symbolism that was used in the mind palace scene, he was practically as dead as a doornail. Almost everything shouts "He's dead" at the audience, his meeting with the very dead Moriarty is just one of those things. Mofftiss wanted to let us know that yes, Sherlock is in fact dead - because of Mary. And that he is coming back - because of John.

Marta · August 16, 2014 6:35 pm

SusiGo wrote:
IMO he leaves the hospital to make John see her for what she is and to somehow keep him safe.

In my opinion, Sherlock escapes from the hospital to save his life. He doesn't know by then if Mary wanted to kill him or not, and she could easily kill him in the hospital if she wanted. He can't tell anyone about Mary because it would put that person in danger - Mary might try to kill that person, too. As long as John doesn't know about Mary, Sherlock's life is in danger so he arranges the meeting in Lainster Gardens as soon as he can.
I think Mary's words "And I'd do anything to stop that from happening" when she aims to him confirm that she'd kill him if John hadn't already known the truth.

SusiGo · August 16, 2014 6:37 pm

Interesting point. And I agree with you that Mary's words in Leinster Gardens are an open threat to kill Sherlock, this time for good.

besleybean · August 16, 2014 6:40 pm

Will she try for s 3rd time next season?

SusiGo · August 16, 2014 6:43 pm

I hope not. Could be quite repetitive. However, if it helped John to see who is good for him ...

besleybean · August 16, 2014 6:52 pm

I have no doubt that Mark and Steven have a magnificent story arc...

SusiGo · August 16, 2014 7:18 pm

Yes, I am sure they have.

maryagrawatson · August 16, 2014 8:32 pm

Marta wrote:
SusiGo wrote:
IMO he leaves the hospital to make John see her for what she is and to somehow keep him safe.

I agree with both of you on this! He had an elaborate plan to get John to see what Mary has been up to, including leaving a bottle of her perfume at 221B so that John would have an inkling of what was going on before Sherlock contacted him.

I find it interesting that it wasn't until Janine said, "I'll give your love to John and Mary," that Sherlock seems to make his decision to get out of the hospital and deal with the Mary situation.

As for Sherlock's heart stopping, I don't disagree one bit with any of you. I just thought it was interesting medical trivia.

Mary

Mattlocked · August 17, 2014 9:39 am

Hm... The words of Moriarty were:

"... and John will cry buckets and buckets. It's him that I worry about the most. THAT wife! You're letting him down, Sherlock. John Watson is definitely in danger!"

To me it means nothing else than it's not Magnusson, but "that wife", Mary.

Last edited by Mattlocked (August 17, 2014 9:42 am)

besleybean · August 17, 2014 9:45 am

Which is possibly exactly why Mycroft was telling Sherlock not to get sidetracked by CAM.

SusiGo · August 17, 2014 9:59 am

At this point Sherlock does not know if and in which way Magnussen is a threat for Mary. He walks in on her threatening Magnussen at gun point. This is all he knows. And Sherlock is under severe stress trying to somehow save his life.
The wording "that wife!" is not exactly an expression of empathy with John and Mary as a couple but of fear for John because of his wife. This is at least how I understand it and how it is played by Andrew.