BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Some things that are puzzling me

SolarSystem · August 14, 2014 3:03 pm

Maaahhhh, tonnaree....! Don't write things like that, I suddenly want it to happen so badly! Well, suddenly, when I say suddenly...

tobeornot221b · August 14, 2014 3:39 pm

SusiGo wrote:
And we see them sitting side by side on the sofa, Sherlock having his arm somewhere on the backrest behind John's shoulders, a thing we have never seen them doing before.

I tried to make screencaps of the scene in question. When Sherlock hears Tessa's words: "I'd love to have gone further...", he starts up and quickly removes his hand from the backrest.
Quite telling...

Zatoichi · August 14, 2014 3:48 pm

Could we please continue in the respective thread if it´s just about Johnlock now? Pretty please?

tonnaree · August 14, 2014 4:46 pm

THERE'S A JOHNLOCK THREAD?!?!

*hides in corner*

Mattlocked · August 14, 2014 4:50 pm

Zatoichi wrote:
Could we please continue in the respective thread if it´s just about Johnlock now? Pretty please?

Why? Are you afraid to believe it in the end?
(Or do you already? Sorry, I forgot.)

mrshouse · August 14, 2014 5:05 pm

Zatoichi wrote:
Could we please continue in the respective thread if it´s just about Johnlock now? Pretty please?

I see your point. I love musing with the ladies about it a bit but it's not too much asked to keep it to the respective thread.

besleybean · August 14, 2014 5:09 pm

Thank you.

Zatoichi · August 14, 2014 5:45 pm

Mattlocked wrote:
Zatoichi wrote:
Could we please continue in the respective thread if it´s just about Johnlock now? Pretty please?

Why? Are you afraid to believe it in the end?
(Or do you already? Sorry, I forgot.)

No, I´ve made up my mind about my favourite sneaky bas****s and their intentions. I was just for a moment so happy about a thread that actually focussed on a different aspect of the show.. (I know, what was I thinking, right?)

Edit: Thank you, mrshouse!

Lilith · August 14, 2014 6:26 pm

Zatoichi wrote:
I was just for a moment so happy about a thread that actually focussed on a different aspect of the show.. (I know, what was I thinking, right?)

Same here. *sigh*

Mattlocked · August 14, 2014 6:31 pm

?? but there are lots of them ??
Or did I misunderstand something now?

But of course you are right, there is a reason why we have different threads.

Liberty · August 14, 2014 7:13 pm

Apologies for being one of the derailers! Back on track ... I think one thing that's bothering me is that I got the idea we were seeing a kind of younger, earlier, less developed version of Sherlock to begin with and that he was going to grow into something more like what's in the books, or the other interpretations (Rathbone, Brett - I know he's not going to be the same, but they give an idea about where the character is going, maybe). I thought Season 2 did that very well. He experiences things like fear, but learns to deal with them and choose a path. He is becoming more controlled and more powerful, and finally heroic - possibly even "a great man", by the beginning of Season 3.

I can see how it wouldn't have worked to continue that trajectory over Season 3, but it doesn't really make sense to knock him down either. He has to somehow end up as "Sherlock Holmes" - knowing, confident, astoundingly clever, etc.

It's OK that they made the two-year exile affect him. Of course it's going to affect him. And actually he does manage to function in this episode, if you leave out the "stupid" things that I mentioned. Which makes me think there must be a reason for those things (even if it's just comic relief!). They're not really Sherlock - not the kind of mistakes he would make.

tobeornot221b · August 14, 2014 7:19 pm

Liberty wrote:
They're not really Sherlock - not the kind of mistakes he would make.

And what kind of mistakes would you allow him to make?

Liberty · August 14, 2014 7:56 pm

tobeornot221b wrote:
Liberty wrote:
They're not really Sherlock - not the kind of mistakes he would make.
And what kind of mistakes would you allow him to make?

I think the main "mistake" that he regularly makes is taking a while to cotton on. He does that in TSOT, and I think that's mostly fine. I actually thought it was worse in ASIP (when he doesn't work out it's the cabbie for ages). I think he should be a little bit slow at times, because if he was too fast, the viewers wouldn't have a chance to try to guess. For instance, I'm sure it was possible for him to know immediately that Sholto was the intended victim, but I think it's fair play to us to have him go through it and let us think "oh yes, it's got to be him"! That's fine, because although it's slow, it's letting us see his chain of thought and how he puts things together.

Last edited by Liberty (August 14, 2014 8:35 pm)

maryagrawatson · August 14, 2014 8:10 pm

Liberty wrote:
I think the main "mistake" that he regularly makes is taking a while to cotton on. He does that in TSOT, and I think that's mostly fine. I actually thought it was worse in ASIP (when he doesn't work out it's the cabbie for ages).

The very first episode told me that Sherlock is very good at observing and deducing from clues, but he's not that good at putting those clues together -- he has deductive, not analytical skills. We see him struggling with that in most episodes, like in TGG where he's studying the map and angrily accuses the bomber of showing off. He deduces that the letter came from Eastern Europe, the assassin came from Eastern Europe, and the museum lady was from Eastern Europe, but how long did it take him to get to the point of realising that any of that tied together?

So there's precedent for Sherlock being slow. Maybe not as badly as he is in TSOT, but, come on, he's giving a wedding speech while deducing! That's rather impressive! I think that if he had just focused on the murder instead of waxing poetically about John's jumpers and a memorable meal that might have involved peas, he would have figured it all out much more quickly.

Mary

Liberty · August 14, 2014 8:33 pm

Oh yes, I agree, Mary. I was trying to answer the question above about what mistakes Sherlock should make, and I thought that was one of them. I'll put the quote in to make it clearer! I think it's fine in TSOT and fits with other times that he's "slow" in that way. I like your clarification of the difference between the two skills.

maryagrawatson · August 14, 2014 8:42 pm

Liberty wrote:
Oh yes, I agree, Mary. I was trying to answer the question above about what mistakes Sherlock should make, and I thought that was one of them. I'll put the quote in to make it clearer! I think it's fine in TSOT and fits with other times that he's "slow" in that way. I like your clarification of the difference between the two skills.

I was poorly agreeing with you.

Between old life, as a security analyst for the government and now consulting for various police services, I really see the difference between analytical and deductive skills. They're complementary, but just because you're good at one doesn't mean you're good at the other. I get the impression that Mycroft is better at analysis while Sherlock is better at deduction, which is why they work so well together.

Mary

Liberty · August 14, 2014 10:09 pm

So you used to be Mycroft and now you're Sherlock? Thank you, you've given me an insight into those characters. I'm going to watch the series with that in mind.

maryagrawatson · August 14, 2014 10:41 pm

Liberty wrote:
So you used to be Mycroft and now you're Sherlock?

Sort of and definitely not!

(I'm more like John -- medical background before I was as civil servant and now a famous blogger! )

Mary

Mattlocked · August 15, 2014 7:55 am

Liberty wrote:
He is becoming more controlled and more powerful, and finally heroic - possibly even "a great man", by the beginning of Season 3.

I can see how it wouldn't have worked to continue that trajectory over Season 3, ....

Well, it actually does continue. He is quite heroic at the end of the third episode.

maryagrawatson wrote:
...

(I'm more like John -- medical background before I was as civil servant and now a famous blogger! )

Mary

I'm quite interested in reading your blog, btw. Where can I find it?

Last edited by Mattlocked (August 15, 2014 7:57 am)

SolarSystem · August 15, 2014 10:10 am

Mattlocked wrote:
Liberty wrote:
He is becoming more controlled and more powerful, and finally heroic - possibly even "a great man", by the beginning of Season 3.

I can see how it wouldn't have worked to continue that trajectory over Season 3, ....

Well, it actually does continue. He is quite heroic at the end of the third episode.

And at the same time we also see him struggle several times. He obviously didn't know that there are no vaults in Magnussen's house, he didn't realize what was going on with Mary until it was almost too late...
And to be honest: I like that. A lot, in fact. Because it shows us that he's only human after all, that those two years seem to have left their marks on him and that he's not arrived at the end of his journey yet. And how boring would that be? What would happen in S4 if Sherlock wouldn't have to continue to develop further? I think it's very realistic that they don't show us a linear path where everything works out just perfectly and without any backlashes.
I personally hope that they continue to show us a Sherlock who is struggling with himself and the world around him.