Then there was Sherlock being surprised at being John's best friend.  It didn't make any sense.  Sherlock has called John his friend in the very first episode (ASiP).   Just in the last episode, John has said that Sherlock is the best man he's ever known.  I know Sherlock can sometimes miss the obvious, but I didn't find it believable that he would be so dumbfounded at being John's best friend.  It was a sweet little scene otherwise.  And I recognise that Sherlock is telling a story, and it's possible that it didn't actually happen like that.


Sherlock told the things a bit differently as they actually happened, as we can see in the pictures shown to us simultaneously to what he's saying. So things actually happened like we could see them.
And I am not surprised at all. Telling someone how much you like/love/adore him and showing him (by letting him be the Best Man) are two different things for me. I fully understand that Sherlock was confused - as he also explains during his speech. He never thought he would ever be a man's BEST FRIEND.
I know people I really adore for e.g. for their intelligence. But it doesn't mean they are my best friend.
Sherlock also knows that a lot of people are quite impressed by his intelligence (clients), but is not used to be or have a real friend. A BEST friend.

Addition: When he called John his friend in ASiP it was for showing off. He didn't know it and I think he also didn't really believe it.

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Sherlock seemed confused when the guests were moved by his speech.  He'd spent ages writing it, researched it, drafted in LeStrade, deliberately made it "sentimental"  - why was he suprised to get the intended reaction?   It didn't ring true.   (I suppose all of these things could show that Sherlock is failing in some way, not functioning as usual ... and maybe that will be explained in HLV).  Just in general, Sherlock does understand people's motivations and feelings very well, or he wouldn't be able to solve cases the way he does - what is going wrong here?

Nothing is going wrong imo. He knows that people cry when they care for somebody or someone died. And he uses this knowledge it for solving crimes. But he also very often needed John as guidance. "Sherlock! Not now!" "Sentiment?" "Sentiment."
So he was telling the audience quite nice things about John - and Mary - and is obviously confused why everyone's crying. So he does what he always did: Asking John what's wrong, Relying on him. As he always does when it comes to "this kind of stuff."
It shows us very impressive that he might have developed, that he shows more feels, but still is unsure in this terrain.

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He's normally a show-off, but here he seems to put himself down quite a lot, for instance by talking about cases he couldn't solve.   I know he's trying to take a back seat to John and Mary.  But then he doesn't!  He takes centre stage with the wedding speech, and seems to be the only person making a speech (although maybe we missed John's speech).

We don't know if John made a speech before. Or if he would have made one after Sherlock's. However, the case came into the way. The speech was fine and he intends to end it when he holds up the glass. Then Mycroft tells him (in his mind palace) that he has control and has to keep it. That's the point when the speech get's out of line as he tries to keep control and solve the case without the guests noticing.

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The murder didn't really convince me, either. But I take things easy here and tell myself: Well, it's fiction and it maybe could have worked, so fine with me.
But I believe I would notice if someone punctures me, no matter how slim the "tool" may be. 

Last edited by Mattlocked (August 12, 2014 8:59 am)

Liberty wrote:

I couldn't find a thread which quite fitted, so I'm starting a new one.  Bear in mind that I haven't seen HLV yet, and have only watched TSoT through for the first time a couple of days ago, so I'm still mulling it over.

I found it difficult to believe in the characters planning the wedding.  All three of them!  None of them struck me as the type to be particularly interested in wedding stationary, etc.   I suppose we're supposed to think that Mary, as the bride, is the most interested, but even she didn't strike me as somebody who'd care that much.  And the napkins?  The caterers would do the napkins, not the best man.  Maybe it was to show Sherlock going off the rails slightly in his efforts to please John?  Of course, Sherlock had to see the wedding stationary to be able to solve the crime, so there was that.  How did John go from craving danger and excitement to wanting to plan all the tiny details of a wedding? I suppose he got used to boredom even at 221B, when Sherlock would spend hours thinking or doing something unfathomable, and he's also used to helping out when needed.  But still. 

Then there was Sherlock being surprised at being John's best friend.  It didn't make any sense.  Sherlock has called John his friend in the very first episode (ASiP).   Just in the last episode, John has said that Sherlock is the best man he's ever known.  I know Sherlock can sometimes miss the obvious, but I didn't find it believable that he would be so dumbfounded at being John's best friend.  It was a sweet little scene otherwise.  And I recognise that Sherlock is telling a story, and it's possible that it didn't actually happen like that.

Sherlock seemed confused when the guests were moved by his speech.  He'd spent ages writing it, researched it, drafted in LeStrade, deliberately made it "sentimental"  - why was he suprised to get the intended reaction?   It didn't ring true.   (I suppose all of these things could show that Sherlock is failing in some way, not functioning as usual ... and maybe that will be explained in HLV).  Just in general, Sherlock does understand people's motivations and feelings very well, or he wouldn't be able to solve cases the way he does - what is going wrong here?

He's normally a show-off, but here he seems to put himself down quite a lot, for instance by talking about cases he couldn't solve.   I know he's trying to take a back seat to John and Mary.  But then he doesn't!  He takes centre stage with the wedding speech, and seems to be the only person making a speech (although maybe we missed John's speech). 

In TRF, Sherlock created a public persona for a reason, and I wondered if that's what he's doing here?  There are so many times that Sherlock has been one step ahead of the game and kept it from us (the audience).I don't know.  I find this episode confusing.  A lot of it is about his relationship with John, but there are changes in other ways too.  He channels Mycroft in a way that we haven't seen him do before - I did like that (that he needs to tune into the Mycroftian part of his mind). 

The murder method didn't convince me either, which was a shame as I liked the idea.  Somebody convince me that it would work!
 

This post could have been written by me - and even after watching HLV and pondering about it for over half a year now I´m no less confused than I was. There is so much in this episode that makes no sense to me or doesn´t quite ring true.. although for the majority it seems to be a favourite, the things you mention keep puzzling me..

Another example: Sherlock studies a book about how to write a best man speech. He wants to give it his best shot, he asks Lestrade vor advice. Even for someone who values rational thought and intellect over the subtleties of social graces it should be pretty clear by then that you maybe better don´t express your own negative opinion on the social construct of marriage on that special occasion? Or did the book advise to "make it all about yourself, your worldview and your love for the groom"? So many questions. I find it hard to believe that an highly intelligent man who wants to please his best friend (with whom he was reconciled very recently and their relationship is still quite shaky) would act as he did. But obviously that´s just me..

The murder method wouldn´t work, sorry for not even trying to convince ;P. A blade broad enough to cause severe bleeding couldn´t be inserted through clothes, skin and muscles without the victim noticing anything. The pressure you´d need alone.. it doesn´t just slide in like that. And all the nerves on its way.. if the blade is so sharp as to not cause pain while slicing it I bet every surgeon would be delighted to buy the patent. And if the belt was enough to keep the wound from bleeding for several hours, then the victim could have compressed it quite easily too while calling for help. And don´t tell me you can lose so much blood you faint without even noticing it, I´m an expert on severe bloodloss, and.. no. You can´t. 

I know this ep is one of the favourites for most people, and I really really want to like it too, but.. well. You can´t have everyting. I enjoy the brilliant aesthetics of it and try not to overthink the rest..

Edit: Cross-posted..

Last edited by Zatoichi (August 12, 2014 10:42 am)

I love the speech, for me it is one of the finest pieces of writing in the series. Why? Because it is so very Sherlock. He was never one for social graces and telling funny stories to entertain a whole room of people. He has been away for two years and is still not sure that John has forgiven him. He has to do so many things that are foreign to him and which he despises and for which he usually has not patience. He is so desperate that he calls his brother because he does not want to be the only outsider here. For me this is a man barely holding himself together (remember his look to the chair  and the words "into battle") and yet trying to do everything to make John happy. 

For me the saddest thing about the speech is how little Sherlock thinks of himself. Here we see that for all his brilliance and showing off he deeply insecure where emotions are concerned. He does not like himself and therefore assumes that other people do not like him either. (Btw, for me this is mirroring his "inner John" scene in TEH when he hears John saying all those things he has said before but with a negative undertone. This is how Sherlock sees himself).
 

In the whole episode, Sherlock is not his calculating self but quite off track. Before he goes "into battle" (in his battle dress ) he even tries to talk down the significance of the event in front of himself and Mrs Hudson: "what 'big day'?". He knows that the wedding will mark "the end of an era", though John had told him that they will continue to do "stuff". And the "big question" scene which in my opinion is the real proposal he takes the place of the one who is unexpectedly being proposed to - including confusion, being flattered, surprise and emotion. This is - of course! -  over the top for simply being asked to be best man - but Sherlock's reaction to everything that has to do with the wedding - even making napkin folding issues for top-level - indicate that there is more to his best man role than just his best man role. And the writers want us to be aware of this.

The whole thing about him having low self-esteem and thinking people don't like him doesn't fit with what he sees.   He is surrounded by people who clearly care about him, even at the wedding.  Even if you leave out John, he's got LeStrade dropping the case of his career just because Sherlock might be in danger, he's just found out that Mrs Hudson brings him tea every morning, and Mary appearing to value him, asking his advice as well as seeing through him. 

In fact, he's less alone at that wedding than many people would be.  There are people who don't have such good friends, and are single/divorced/widowed/etc.  At least Sherlock chooses not to indulge.  I felt that a little at the end, that he's chosen that path and there is a little bit of regret.  But it's not like everybody else is perfectly happy - Molly with the not-Sherlock boyfriend, Mrs Hudson with the bigamist, etc.

I agree that he's worried about a change in the relationship with John.  Mrs Hudson doesn't help, and I agree that he probably knew about the pregnancy before the speech (when Mary talks about the wine).   But he can't think John doesn't care about him.  He was able to hear what John said at his grave when John didn't know he was listening.   And then John says it to his face at the end of TEH.  And there's the best man "proposal". 

Zatoichi, yes I enjoy the aesthetics too, and there are some things I like about it (the courtroom scenes, solving a puzzle rather than chasing about it getting in danger), and some things that I don't mind - I'm happy for Sherlock to have slowed down intellectually if this is going to mean something - even if it's just that he's right about how "sentiment" affects him.   But some parts just don't seem to add up and don't seem to be in character.  

Last edited by Liberty (August 12, 2014 2:21 pm)

nakahara wrote:

The most puzzling thing for me was Sherlock belittling himself in front of some unknown strangers (even calling himself an asshole and denoting his adventures as ridiculous). Now, that was a sharp contrast with how his personality was depicted in the rest of the series. A vain man, proud at his abilities and achievements the way he was before would never do such thing! Plus, why would he do it in the first place? He never cared for the opinions of strangers, why would he start now? And he certainly didn´t do it for John, since what benefit would John have from his friend kicking himself in this manner? It all makes zero sense to me.

Actually, it makes total sense to me, because it means that John has saved Sherlock from being an unpleasant asshole. That's his way of telling John what John means to him and how important John really is for Sherlock. John put up with all of Sherlock's shit, he lived with it and apparently he likes Sherlock for what and who he really is. Sherlock's way of acknowlwdging this might be a little awkward, but in my opinion that's just Sherlock.
 

Liberty wrote:

In fact, he's less alone at that wedding than many people would be.  There are people who don't have such good friends, and are single/divorced/widowed/etc.

Yes. But still (also in reality) there are people who are loved by many people and still don't see it themselves. I think that's the point of Sherlock here. He is "so not used to it" that he probably cannot imagine.

nakahara wrote:

The most puzzling thing for me was Sherlock belittling himself in front of some unknown strangers (even calling himself an asshole and denoting his adventures as ridiculous). Now, that was a sharp contrast with how his personality was depicted in the rest of the series. A vain man, proud at his abilities and achievements the way he was before would never do such thing! Plus, why would he do it in the first place? He never cared for the opinions of strangers, why would he start now? And he certainly didn´t do it for John, since what benefit would John have from his friend kicking himself in this manner? It all makes zero sense to me.

SolarSystem wrote:

I'm not even sure he prepared all those things he said about marriage and the family idiot asf... I'd rather believe that he got carried away, that he lost track there for a moment.
 

I don't think he lost track and I do think that the "bad" beginning of the speech was indeed prepared. Because before he changes in tone he kind of tells the guests that he wanted to show them what an asshole he is and therefore he has no explanation why he earns Johns deep friendship.
 
I found the episode funny the first time. But while watching it again and again it changes from funny to sad.

Mattlocked wrote:

I don't think he lost track and I do think that the "bad" beginning of the speech was indeed prepared. Because before he changes in tone he kind of tells the guests that he wanted to show them what an asshole he is and therefore he has no explanation why he earns Johns deep friendship.

That´s possible, but why do you think it´s so important to him to stress how underserving he is? Still solely directed at John, to show how aware he is of his own shortcomings and how sorry about everything he has done to him? And how grateful for his friendship and how much he doesn´t take him for granted and values him?.. To get that message across, even if it means belittling himself, no matter what people will think of him?
..
..
Excuse me while I go sob in a corner. 

Mattlocked wrote:

Crying is a thing for loss, caring, pain. But not out of happiness or because of being moved. Not for Sherlock. Another lack of understanding "ordinary people". That's how I understand that scene.

I don´t know, our genius living for around 35 years and never ever seeing (or reading about) people crying out of happiness or because of being moved? And saving it as "ordinary people reaction" in his mindpalace? It never occurred to me before but I think Liberty is right here and it´s a comedy thing.. I might have to rewatch TSoT after all.. 

Well, it just doesn't make sense to me.   He's a very good actor and manipulator, he understand what motivates people and how they react (for instance, he shouts at the school house mistress or whatever she was in TRF, to get a quicker answer, then tells people how to deal with her afterwards).  There is something wrong if he doesn't know what's happening here.   But then there are other examples where Sherlock has been "different" for comedic effect, so that's what I thought might be going on. 

I think it's probably right that he's putting himself down to show how much he thinks of John (he says something about the "contrast" earlier, but then twists it round so that he compares less favourably to John).   But it is an odd thing to do.  Not something John would want.  John has already had quite a time of having to almost defend Sherlock's honour during TRF (and after).  Sherlock even asks about it mattering to John, what people think of Sherlock.   Why on earth would John want Sherlock to publicly belittle himself? 

About people not always knowing they are loved and cared for, Mattlocked, it's true, but what I'm saying is that he has proof of it right in front of him, throughout that episode, starting with LeStrade at the beginning. 
 

Liberty wrote:

About people not always knowing they are loved and cared for, Mattlocked, it's true, but what I'm saying is that he has proof of it right in front of him, throughout that episode, starting with LeStrade at the beginning. 
 

And it lies in the human nature not to demand a repetition of a declaration of care and love from your beloved ones. Once for a lifetime is enough.