BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Violence at the reunion

maryagrawatson · August 9, 2014 3:27 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Sorry, now we are already talking about Sherlock torturing people?

Oh, I guess he was trying to stop the cabbie from bleeding to death, not use pain to get information out of him? Guess I misinterpreted that scene.

Mary

Liberty · August 9, 2014 3:31 pm

A lovely light wrote:
This subject together with the one about Moriarty suicide rubbed against me in the wrong way.

Sorry to have bother anyone with my high moral, it was not my intention. I got upset, sorry about that, it will never happen from now on. I will take now my horse and go away to the non-controversy subjects.

Please don't! These are both threads that I started, and I'm really sorry if they've/I've upset you. I'm new here and a bit overly enthusiastic about the whole thing, having come to it late. I need to calm down. Please stay. I appreciate your posts.

maryagrawatson · August 9, 2014 4:06 pm

I'm also done with this thread. Cheers!

Mary

Liberty · August 10, 2014 1:06 am

I've watched TSoT now. It's interesting, there seems to be no tension at all between them in this episode. Sherlock has changed, but John has changed too. I wonder how much of that is to do with the ending of TEH (when Sherlock almost forces John to forgive him?). I still don't really get it ... why the forgiving is on John's side only (although, I'm relieved that John seems a much more caring, open, better person in TSoT, I think). And I need to think about the rather subdued (and also more open) Sherlock in TSoT.

SusiGo · August 10, 2014 10:30 am

For me the whole episode is a declaration of love from Sherlock to John. He not only puts his love in words, he also goes out of his way to ensure that John will have the perfect wedding day. It has been called a comedy in some reviews but for me it is truly one of the saddest episodes.

tonnaree · August 10, 2014 11:58 am

Two words. Pining Sherlock.

Liberty · August 17, 2014 7:50 am

I've watched HLV now, and after seeing the scene where Molly hits Sherlock, I think La Jolie is correct - they do want to show us our hero getting hurt, repeatedly. I'm curious about audience reaction to the Molly scene, so will have a scout around the forums and elsewhere.

La Jolie · August 17, 2014 1:48 pm

Liberty, if you want my response directly (and as usual, I'm afraid, nobody else will admit to feeling the same way):

Yes, Molly slapping Sherlock in HLV exactly fits the pattern I was trying describe. I admit it pushes all my buttons with a vengeance. I like the scene for Molly's sake (yay for confident, empowered Molly!) but I like it even better for the sake of my own gratification. He just takes humiliation so well.

Both aspects are related, though. As I tried to point out before, it's not about random violence. It matters who inflicts it and for what reason. It has to have a narrative reason to be there. That is the case in the scene with Molly, IMO. It matters that it's Molly doing it, because it tells us something about their relationship and how it has changed over the course of the series. It also matters that she does it not just to gratify herself (although I did want to cheer her on simply because Sherlock SO had it coming for a long, long time) but because ultimately she cares about him. So it doesn't seem gratuitous to me.

How did you feel about the scene? Unnecessary, disturbing, pointless, or just right?

Last edited by La Jolie (August 17, 2014 3:01 pm)

Liberty · August 17, 2014 4:36 pm

Well, that's the trouble. You've made me think about whether I want to see a suffering hero and if I'm honest, I do, at a gut level rather than a cerebral level. (Now it's disturbing me that I'm trying to describe it in terms of which body parts are responding! Basically, it's all brain really). So there's that.

It didn't scream "domestic violence" at me in the way the scene with John did. I'm not sure why but it could be any or all of the following: women slapping men is common on screen and not usually used to show domestic violence so I recognise it as something else, female perpetrator, repeated blows but not drawn out over a period of time, Molly does not come across as quite so aggressive and confrontational, Sherlock isn't appeasing, the violence isn't so extreme or damaging. I'm just thinking aloud here.

On the other hand, it did make me uncomfortable. I hadn't imagined Molly as violent at all. As with John, it made me like Molly's character less (and I did really like her before). I understand that she's worried and cares about him, but I don't accept that it's OK for people to hit Sherlock because they care about him. And I don't think Sherlock had it coming either. He's not conciliatory (as he is with John) but he's still passive and doesn't put up any defence. Again, I could maybe forgive the first blow (even though I really don't like even one), but not all three.

So yes, it has an appeal and you've made me notice how much Sherlock suffers and how much that's presented in an attractive way (there's quite a lot of that even in this one episode). But I don't like it: I don't feel on Molly's side in that scene at all.

tobeornot221b · August 17, 2014 4:53 pm

Apparently, Molly slapping him made an impression on Sherlock to such a degree that this scene went straight into his mind palace where it later helped him to "focus" on surviving the shooting. One could say that the previous shy and mousy Molly became an authority here whom Sherlock for his own advantage - his survival - obeyed.

Liberty · August 17, 2014 6:12 pm

tobeornot221b wrote:
Apparently, Molly slapping him made an impression on Sherlock to such a degree that this scene went straight into his mind palace where it later helped him to "focus" on surviving the shooting. One could say that the previous shy and mousy Molly became an authority here whom Sherlock for his own advantage - his survival - obeyed.

That gives more of a purpose to the scene, thank you. Although making it be "for his own good" almost makes it worse!

Lilith · August 17, 2014 6:47 pm

As i have said elsewhere, Molly hitting Sherlock once might be understandable and to a point excusable because i see it as a helpless act of despair because she thinks he really throws his talent away and he disappoints his friends and she ist just so disappointed in him that he tested positive on drugs. Yet, hitting him three times is way over the top for my personal taste. She does love that man (i am sure she still does to a degree). So i personally think that if you hit someone (in the face, eye-to eye) and that person doesn't defend themselves, no, i don't think you would hit them again and AGAIN. I think you would stop short and would be actually very ashamed! I am just so strongly against physical violence and it shocks me a bit that several users here EXPECTED physical assault to Sherlock. Really? Think that a bit scary, to be honest.

Liberty · August 17, 2014 9:13 pm

I agree. As with John, the repetition makes it so much worse. And also that we know that Sherlock is trying to do something good, but his friends don't trust him. I think Sherlock's snarky comment to Molly afterwards (about the engagement) is justified, and I'm glad he said something rather than continuing to be so passive (even if it was a rather childish comment). I can also see why people might sympathise with Molly and not like that he makes a personal verbal attack on her, when she is just concerned about him. But I'd have hated to see a repeat of the situation with John, where Sherlock is continually apologetic.

SusiGo · September 1, 2014 10:00 am

I just saw something on tumblr (sorry, it seems I cannot link the entry) which is quite interesting and probably has not been mentioned here:

When John first recognises Sherlock and gets up from his chair, Sherlock puts his right hand forward. He clearly expects John to be glad to see him and wants to shake hands with him. Human error.

gently69 · September 1, 2014 10:08 am

Susi, do you mean this one?
http://aconsultingdetective.tumblr.com/post/96338097507/sherlock-reaching-out-to-john-with-his-right

Human error ... yes ... this time with Sherlock ...

SusiGo · September 1, 2014 10:14 am

Yes, thank you, gently. Quite sad, actually.

gently69 · September 1, 2014 10:19 am

When Sherlock becomes aware ... of his human error. That's sad indeed.

besleybean · September 1, 2014 3:38 pm

I don't think he did make an error, I think John is stupid and that clip is heart breaking.

SusiGo · September 1, 2014 3:39 pm

besleybean wrote:
I don't think he did make an error, I think John is stupid and that clip is heart breaking.

Yes, I agree. Sherlock may regard it as a human error but it broke my heart as well.

La Jolie · September 2, 2014 11:28 am

Argh, that aborted handshake.

The whole scene is such a train wreck, even if you completely understand John's reaction, as I think I do.

But it's still one of the best train wrecks in the history of television.