Yes, I agree that he isn't responsible for Wheeler's death, but I'm quite uncomfortable about how he treats Wheeler after his return.   Wheeler is obviously traumatised and hangs around Edmund a lot, even trying to tell him how he feels ("I'm in hell").   Edmund seems to mostly shout at Wheeler and find him irritating.   Maybe it's to do with the class divide, and Wheeler being a servant.  I understand him not seeking to be friends with Wheeler (they don't seem to have that connection), but he doesn't seem to show much interest or care at all.  

I do see that Edmund was pre-occupied while Wheeler was going through his private hell.  I didn't think of Wheeler talking to anybody else - I wonder why he chose Edmund?   After all, it was Edmund who inadvertently caused trouble by naming Wheeler as an informant (by mistake!).  Maybe it was because Edmund had shown such an interest in nautical things and people from the beginning, that Wheeler thought he might care about him?

I suppose that nowadays we'd suspect that Wheeler had PTSD.  Before the Alcyone had come along, he must have been certain that he was going to die a slow, horrible death, and the exposure to the elements and dehydration maybe didn't help his mental state either.   Maybe he killed himself quickly because he couldn't bear the thought of going through that again.  And maybe talking wouldn't have helped with that. 

Thank you for talking about the books with me. I love hearing your views.  I don't know anybody else who has read them or even wants to read them! 

I finished the book recently, and it's a bit like saying goodbye to an old friend.  I slowed down reading towards the end because I didn't want to end!

There was a lot more detail about Marion and Edmund meeting up again and what became of them, but what has really stuck with me is the end of the Zenobia story.  I looked this up on the internet because it was disturbing (and just ignored in the TV series).  Zenobia was unwell after the encounter with Edmund at the beginning, and he hardly mentions or her or thinks of her.  When they arrive, she's carried off the ship on the stretcher.   And then Edmund gets a letter to say that she has died and wanted to know she was "crossing the bridge".  I had a look on the internet and it does seem as if this is meant to be a reference to Edmund saying that they'll "cross that bridge when YOU come to it", abdicating responsibility for a possible pregnancy.   Edmund isn't moved or bothered by the letter.  I'm quite horrified that Zenobia was unwell and pregnant by him for all those months, eventually dying as a direct result of the bit of fun with Edmund.   It's very dark ... of course, this is William Golding, not a historical romance! 

I loved that Edmund was a mixed character, with plenty of flaws.   But this one is the most shocking.  With the other deaths he did show a little remorse, and at least thought of them.   Zenobia's is probably the death he's most directly responsible for, but he barely thinks of her. 

Yes, I think it was a special relationship - the main one in the book.  I forget books very quickly, so forgive me if I get some of the details wrong.   I thought they genuinely cared for each other.   Charles getting dry clothes for Edmund, and inviting him to do the middle watch (can't remember what it was called) because he knows he's scared in the night - I thought those were lovely.   But Charles also has an agenda in needing and seeking Edmund's patronage.  The class divide comes up again and again too.   Not that these things diminish what I think is a very genuine friendship, but they do add another dimension to it,

It seems that Charles was unusual in being an officer who had been promoted up.   He was kind of between classes.  I thought at first that maybe he was particularly good at his job and that was why he'd been promoted, but later on he explains that it was simply because somebody in power liked that he was religious and read the bible (I suppose it was an advantage that he could read!) rather than because of any particular skill.   And again, his chance of promotion is going to be down to somebody favouring him, rather than proving his worth.   (Although, in the end Edmund turns out to have far less power than he thinks he does). 

At the same time, Edmund always seems to be aware of Charles being of lower class and makes a couple of unpleasant remarks about it. 

Do you think Charles' jealousy could be sexual jealousy?  I'm not sure ... he seems more jealous that Anderson favours Benet, and I didn't get any "chemistry" between then two of them.   Charles and Edmund definitely had chemistry, but I don't know ... I see Colley as being attracted to Edmund (he definitely has romantic feelings about him, but I don't think he knows what the feelings mean), but I didn't see that so clearly with Charles, although it could be implied (and we still don't know which officers Billy Rogers suspected!).  I do see Charles as openly concerned about losing Edmund's patronage.   It's ironic that he gets what he wants through Benet in the end, rather than Edmund (if I remember correctly) and that it's the death of him. 

Of course, I think Marion has an agenda with Edmund too - she has no way (financially) of making a life of her own, and he can take her away from a life she's bored with and let her live respectably and comfortably. 

Didn't Edmund mention something about having sexual experience with boys at school?  Or did I imagine that?   Yes, it seems as if male sexual liaisons were tolerated as long as they were kept private.  I suppose that has often been the case at sea (a bit of a tradition).  Definitely agree about Charles' feelings for Edmund being more than wanting his patronage (he doesn't make a big fuss over the kind things he does for him), but I think it's interesting that there's that aspect there, along with the class thing.

(A bit of an aside, but I was thinking that it's odd that there seems to be so little fanfiction about Edmund/Charles.  I thought that they seemed a perfect couple to write about).

Yes, it's interesting how separate the crew and passengers were, despite the close quarters.  And also the upper and lower passengers.   Edmund knew the upper passengers quite well, but with the lower ones, there wasn't much in the way of names or individuality, although he did notice some of them .... I kept thinking that however awful it was for the upper people during storms, etc., it must have been hell on earth down below.   On the Alcyone, there seems to be more socialisation between crew and passengers - in fact the Captain has his wife with him.   But after the journey, even the passengers don't socialise much with each other, and it didn't look as if Edmund and Charles would have continued to be "best friends" afterwards, even if Charles had lived. 

I also thought that Edmund's feelings for Charles were partly influenced by taking sides against Benet, and that he was against Benet because of his contact with Marion - I don't know if it was certain that the fire was Benet's fault, and perhaps he did have some good ideas, while Charles was stuck in the past?  And of course, Edmund was being loyal to Charles. 

Yes, he's a very unreliable narrator!  (Which is something I loved about the books). 

At first I was sure that the fire was Benet's fault, but I don't feel the book made it 100% clear, and I still think that's probably what happened, but ... I don't know, the idea of the fire smouldering for so long seems strange, and there's Charles determination to go down with the ship.   There's something metaphorical about the whole thing that I'm not quite getting the meaning of, I feel.  Even the fact that that the ship was such a wreck to start with, converted from a warship (was it?  I can't remember - it wasn't meant to be a passenger ship originally), and barely seaworthy.   There's a feeling of impending doom all the time.  As if it was just waiting for the right moment to go down. 

The school thing ... I thought I remembered something about Edmund thinking about Colley and Billy Rogers and thinking of it as a schoolboy thing.   But I may have remembered that wrong.  I'll see if I can find it in the book later. 

Definitely agree about their being more chemistry between Charles and Edmund than Marion and Edward!  Apart from anything else, Charles and Edmund's relationship develops over months, whereas Edmund and Marion's only has a day or two, then a little bit right at the end of the trilogy.     It's an infatuation, which eventually develops into something because they are (I think) compatible at the end.  I still think Edmund's love for Marion was partly concussion .  I found it odd that she always referred to herself in the third person too ("a young person").   But there is no real relationship there, just a fantasy of each other.

I've found the bit I was thinking about, where Edmund is thinking of Billy Rogers comments about what happened with Colley:

Oh, doubtless the man consented, jeeringly and encouraged the ridiculous, schoolboy trick ...

From that, I seem to have extrapolated that there were similar acts going on when Edmund was at school.  Reading it again, I'm not sure.   (But it wouldn't be unusual to have sexual relationships between boys at school). 

The meeting with Marion did seem dreamlike, didn't it?  I'm sure a lot of what happened was to do with the head injuries (the white light surrounding her, etc.), but it seems odd that she would be so drawn towards somebody who was acting so oddly.   It's kind of surprising that they managed to make a relationship out of that fantasy at the end. 

I can't remember if this occurred to me before, but I think I've realised what's niggling me about Charles' death.  The other two in the trilogy are self-inflicted deaths, so I think I'm expecting Charles' to be too, in some way.  Colley willed himself to die, and Wheeler killed himself ... what was Charles' role in his own death?   It may just have been that he chose to go down with the ship, when he could have escaped.   It would normally be a noble thing for a captain to do, but there were no lives to save here - just a ship that was falling apart and was never going to make another long voyage. 

I don't know why (and I know it sounds a little bit stupid) but I've always felt that Charles decided to die just to prove that Lieutenant Benet's idea of repairing the ship with this hot metal was bad and he was the only one that was right. If I remember correctly, in TV series while speaking with Edmund on this burning ship he was laughing that in the end it was him who was right all the time. So maybe he decided to die, maybe he wanted to rescue himself but just didn't make it or maybe he thought that his ship could still be saved and he died trying to rescue it. I don't know, his death was one of that things that suprised and wondered me most.

I don't know.  With Colley, it's shame that kills him, with Wheeler it's fear, with Charles it's ... if feels like it should be something more positive - love, ambition, duty, honour?   It had always been very important for him to get the job, and there's a tradition that a captain should go down with the ship (one of the maritime phrases which are in common use and sprinkled through the story I suppose).  I don't know if they really did go down with their ships when there was a chance to get off.  I got that impression in the TV series too, Marta.

It's terribly ironic that Benet (possibly) causes the fire AND is instrumental in getting Charles promoted so that he has to stay with the ship and die. 

Last edited by Liberty (November 3, 2014 10:01 pm)