BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Violence at the reunion

tonnaree · August 7, 2014 5:15 pm

maryagrawatson wrote:
I skimmed through all the posts in this thread that came in overnight and there's been a lot of good commentary on John's character in series 3. Someone, and I'm sorry for forgetting who, commented (and I know I'm really paraphrasing) that Sherlock was essentially soft and kind and human and sweet in series 3 and John became the hard nosed jerk who can't get his anger under control. That's my problem with John in this series. I miss the old John who was bemused by the Holmes brothers and was their conscience. Sherlock found his humanity in his two years away while John lost his. I don't like series 3 John and I can't imagine anything that could make me like him again from this point on. I really think he's a lost cause.

Mary

You think John is a complte lost cause? You can't think of ANYTHING that would make you like him again?
The show is about Sherlock AND John. Do you think you'll be able to keep watching?

I am the total opposite. Not saying I liked all of John's behavior in S3 but I understood it. I think all of his actions can be explained under the blanket of grief, shock and suppressed emotions.

John and Sherlock are complicated men with a complicated relationship but I love both characters and look forward to them mending their friendship......................................and possibly more.

Schmiezi · August 7, 2014 5:18 pm

I think John's chatacter developement (some call it deterioration) makes him even more human and adds an interesting dynamic to the show. Yes, the John from S1 and S2 was nicer, easier to like. But letting him stay that way would be more than boring, right?

I still think that he is the most interesting Watson of all incarnations. At the moment he is developing opposed to Sherlock, and as someone (sorry, posting from my mobile I can't scroll to see who it was) has already mentioned he is moving down and has yet to hit the bottom. But will hit the botom. (That's why am not optimistic when it comes to the future of Mary and Baby Watson.)

IMO once he reached the bottom, he can start to heal, and he will desperately need Sherlock's love/ friendship / caring /relationship thingy. To state it more precisely, I think that all the character developement Sherlock went through in S3 will be needed to save John.

*sigh* How long untill S4? Mere years, right?

mrshouse · August 7, 2014 5:29 pm

I have my problems with John, too. But to his defence: in this series he hardly sees and certainly doesn't observe. He's emotionally compromised and certainly needs time and personal space to deal with it properly. And we're all swooning about aw-so-lovely-Sherlock, but we have to consider it can't always be cow-eye-"amazing"-John till they retire to Sussex. He leaves us back frustrated because we didn't expect him to leave Sherlock and us fans down, he was reliable.
Schmiezi, I didn't quite grasp the connection you draw between his emotional downfall and Mary and the baby.

Last edited by mrshouse (August 7, 2014 5:30 pm)

SusiGo · August 7, 2014 5:41 pm

Maybe she thinks that losing Mary and/or the baby in some way or other will be the lowest point of John's emotional journey and that he will start to heal from there. Hitting rock bottom and then coming up again.

Last edited by SusiGo (August 7, 2014 5:41 pm)

maryagrawatson · August 7, 2014 5:51 pm

tonnaree wrote:
You think John is a complte lost cause? You can't think of ANYTHING that would make you like him again?

Okay, John's a fictional character, but let's pretend for a minute that he's not. I still care about him, but I don't trust him. Once someone has lost my trust, there's very little to be done because it takes so much for me to trust in the first place. In the first two series, John was the character I trusted to bring order to chaos and to keep Sherlock on track. In series three, he's a broken man desperately in need of therapy who keeps resorting to violence, or threats of it, instead of dealing with his emotions. I maintain what I said in a previous post, that at this point, I believe John could be abusive towards Mary and their baby. I would never have imagined that from the series 1 and 2 John.

The show is about Sherlock AND John. Do you think you'll be able to keep watching?

No doubt about it. Now, I'm watching for Sherlock. It's an interesting reversal of dynamics, really.

I am the total opposite. Not saying I liked all of John's behavior in S3 but I understood it. I think all of his actions can be explained under the blanket of grief, shock and suppressed emotions.

I completley understand it! But understanding is a big step away from excusing. I've said it before; John needs a better therapist. The therapist he was dealing with for his war PTSD is not necessarily the best therapist to help him deal with trauma of seeing Sherlock jump. And the therapist needs to get those two in a room together to hash it out in words. John needs to know, not just vaguely kind of understand, Sherlock's motivation and then find himself worthy of that kind of sacrifice so that he can truly forgive and heal.

Mary

maryagrawatson · August 7, 2014 6:01 pm

Schmiezi wrote:
To state it more precisely, I think that all the character developement Sherlock went through in S3 will be needed to save John.

I love this thought, but, seriously, how many more times is a series going to end with Sherlock saving John?! Just think about it, every single series finale has been about Sherlock sacrificing his life for John. Sherlock has given John so much and by the end of series three I came to realise that it would never be enough for John.

It's rather sad that the more beat down and worn Sherlock gets for all his sacrifcing, the greater becomes the gulf between him and John.

I really need series four to return a semblance of balance to this universe. Because when I first got into this series, I never thought that Sherlock could be a sympathetic character and John the villain, for lack of a better word.

Mary

mrshouse · August 7, 2014 6:03 pm

maryagrawatson wrote:
The therapist needs to get those two in a room together to hash it out in words. John needs to know, not just vaguely kind of understand, Sherlock's motivation and then find himself worthy of that kind of sacrifice so that he can truly forgive and heal.

Lovely put, Mary. I could imagine Ben and Martin deliver a scene like that really beautifully. But I don't agree that you see him possibly getting abusive against Mary and little Shirley. I rather have my fears he will continue blaming just anything on Sherlock and thus the Moftiss continue to stretch the limits of their friendship.

Liberty · August 7, 2014 6:50 pm

You have been busy! I'm really loving reading all your posts, and there's SO much I want to reply to, but I'll try to calm down and just make a couple of points.

No, I haven't seen HLV yet. (I haven't been very successful at avoiding spoilers, so could possibly put the story together from the bits and pieces I've read by accident. But I'm not going to make any judgment until I've seen it and thought about it).

I think a headbutt is quite aggressive: it's designed to cause minimal damage to the attacker (using a part of the body which is much more solid than a fist), but maximum damage to the victim's much more delicate facial bones. John would know that it could break bones, but I don't like to think of him holding back either - that makes it a controlled punishment rather than a momentary loss of control. Which is worse! (Well, it feels worse to me. If John was holding back enough to stop serious damage, then he could have held back altogether ... but decided to go ahead).

This isn't equal. Yes, John has been deeply hurt. But Sherlock hasn't deliberately tried to hurt John (has tried to protect him, in fact). John is deliberately trying to hurt Sherlock.

Sherlock is very much the good guy, and yes, more compassionate, more heroic, etc. than we are used to. He doesn't ever really try to take credit for what he's done. That little speech about not being one of the angels? I think that's for Moriarty's benefit. He is angelic. He practically has angelic light shining out of his head (well, it's coming from behind him, but it's there) in that scene. He takes the disgrace, the exile, the torture and beatings to save John and the others. (I fell for Sherlock in a whole new way at this point). His selflessness makes the entirely selfish violence from John feels much worse. But yes, I DO like that we see this new side to Sherlock, and a change in the dynamic between him and John. I prefer Sherlock as the good guy. (And possibly am coming to terms with John not being at all perfect). I actually hope that doesn't change again.

I agree that making Sherlock's injuries magically disappear was a cop-out .

Last edited by Liberty (August 7, 2014 6:51 pm)

Mattlocked · August 7, 2014 6:54 pm

"Little Shirley"??? Now you're mixing something, do you?

@mary: "I maintain what I said in a previous post, that at this point, I believe John could be abusive towards Mary and their baby."
If you mean it that way I read it: This is ridiculous!!

maryagrawatson · August 7, 2014 7:11 pm

Liberty wrote:
I think a headbutt is quite aggressive: it's designed to cause minimal damage to the attacker (using a part of the body which is much more solid than a fist), but maximum damage to the victim's much more delicate facial bones.

Indeed. Coincidently, I'm working on an assault case today where the female victim was beaten and ultimately headbutted by the accused. The fists did almost no damage. The head butt broke her nose and shattered her left cheekbone and eye socket. (Editing post to add that as in the case of Sherlock and John, the two opponents in this case were evenly matched physically.)

He takes the disgrace, the exile, the torture and beatings to save John and the others. (I fell for Sherlock in a whole new way at this point).

You and me both! The show stopped being about a guy blogging about his extraordinary adventures and rather about the guy doing the adventuring. I can honestly say that I never paid Sherlock a second glance until series 3. Being a blogger myself, I was identifying with John and following his journey.

Mary

Last edited by maryagrawatson (August 7, 2014 7:18 pm)

Schmiezi · August 7, 2014 7:15 pm

Mary, do you really believe John would hurt his baby???

maryagrawatson · August 7, 2014 7:22 pm

Schmiezi wrote:
Mary, do you really believe John would hurt his baby???

At this point, yes, unfortunately. He's got no impulse control and fits of rage. I can imagine a scenario where he and Mary got into a fight, he hasn't been sleeping, he's been drinking, and the baby is wailing and wailing and wailing and he gives her just a little more of a shake than he meant to. I see it happen all the time in my life of work, that a basically decent parent does that with a heck of a lot fewer warning signs than John has been exhibiting.

Mary

Mattlocked · August 7, 2014 7:25 pm

And again: This is ridiculous!

Schmiezi · August 7, 2014 7:25 pm

Wow, I just erased several comments I wrote down. I don't really know what to say.

Schmiezi · August 7, 2014 7:27 pm

No, there is one thing I have to know.

Why do you continue watching a show when you seriously believe that the second main character would be capable of such an action?

Mattlocked · August 7, 2014 7:28 pm

Schmiezi, it seems as if you and me don't know what terrible things happen in this world.....

Schmiezi · August 7, 2014 7:29 pm

Sure, my job as teacher at a social trouble hotspot made me naive.

maryagrawatson · August 7, 2014 7:38 pm

To paraphrase Sherlock, I've dealth with terrorists and psychopaths and rapists and murders and junkies and thieves and who knows what else and none of them can turn my stomach the way that those who hurt children do. And usually, it's not strangers, but people who were suppposed to love and care for them.

I'm sorry if my experience out here in the big bad world and how it colours my view of the show and its characters upsets some of you, but it is what it is. We all bring our own baggage to our viewing experience.

The characters in this show have extraordinary depth that I don't see in most of the crap that's on television these days. Of course I'm going to keep watching even if I don't like where the character of John has been taken. I'm emotionally invested in his character now and even though it's like watching a train wreck, I have to see it through. Yes, I can envision the worst possible course his character can take and because of this I don't trust him anymore. But I also know that basically good people can heal if they will only help themselves, that bad deeds do not make you a bad person, and that redemption for John is still possible. And so, I eagerly await season 4.

Mary

Mattlocked · August 7, 2014 7:47 pm

What I wanted to say is that most of us probably know what happens here in the big bad world.
But still I cannot imagine John.........

SusiGo · August 7, 2014 7:53 pm

Never. This would be a completely different show. An insult to ACD (and I am not traditionalist where Canon ist concerned but this is just ridiculous).