Liberty wrote:

That's an interesting idea.  I'm not sure that Mycroft actually did plan to use John as a spy, though.  Maybe he was just testing him out?  And John passed the test.  Mycroft seems to trust him after that.

Hah, that is funny! This was exactly what i was preparing to write in the John-Mycroft subject (i write first in word as this forum eats my homwork to oft). 

I think that Mycroft tested John at their first meeting and that without knowing, John passed the test. If Mycroft wanted just that John tell him what happens to his brother, he could have said who he is and he would have secured very easy John's help. But no, he tries to intimidated him with the phones and the mystery, is insulting John (The bravery of the soldier. Bravery is by far the kindest word for stupidity, don’t you think?), shows him that he knows his secrets. And the most important thing, he offers John money, when he knows very well that John struggles in this area. How important this was for the test, was for me clear in ASIB:
"MYCROFT: This is a matter of the highest security, and therefore of trust.
JOHN: You don’t trust your own Secret Service?
MYCROFT: Naturally not. They all spy on people for money."
 

I think that the Mycroft-Lestrade relationship is perfectly well explained in this exchange from THOB:

Sherlock: Oh, this is Mycroft, isn't it?
Lestrade: Oh, look...
Sherlock: Oh, of course it is. One mention of Baskerville and he sends down my handler to spy on me incognito.
(snip)
Lestrade: Look, I'm not your handler and I don't do what your brother tells me.

Sherlock sees Lestrade has his handler as per Mycroft's instructions. Sherlock tends to exaggerate things when it comes to the rivalry with his brother, but even so, this clearly shows that Mycroft uses Greg to keep an eye on Sherlock and keep him out of trouble.

I don't think we've ever seen Mycroft and Lestrade interact on the show, but there's obviously lots of it going on behind the scenes.

Mary

maryagrawatson wrote:

I think that the Mycroft-Lestrade relationship is perfectly well explained in this exchange from THOB:

Sherlock: Oh, this is Mycroft, isn't it?
Lestrade: Oh, look...
Sherlock: Oh, of course it is. One mention of Baskerville and he sends down my handler to spy on me incognito.
(snip)
Lestrade: Look, I'm not your handler and I don't do what your brother tells me.

Sherlock sees Lestrade has his handler as per Mycroft's instructions. Sherlock tends to exaggerate things when it comes to the rivalry with his brother, but even so, this clearly shows that Mycroft uses Greg to keep an eye on Sherlock and keep him out of trouble.

I don't think we've ever seen Mycroft and Lestrade interact on the show, but there's obviously lots of it going on behind the scenes.

Mary

 Thanks for finding that quote. Yes, that is the exchange that made me wonder about Lestrade's role. Agreed Sherlock is at his most childish when it comes to Mycroft, but he has a point here. WHY DID LESTRADE SHOW UP IN BASKERVILLE - if Mycroft didn't send him??? Who else besides Mycroft even knew he was there?

Also, much as I like Lestrade, he's a cop, and they are notoriously underpaid. I don't think he's dishonest, per se, but I don't think he would see any harm in accepting a little "thanks" for helping Mycroft keep tabs on Sherlock.

Mary, I think you're right.  I think it is clear that Lestrade has considerable affection as well as respect for Sherlock. 

He's not intimidated by him, and he doesn't mind looking past Sherlock's off-putting behavior, while being willing, like John, to call him on his childish behavior (Well, I'm dealing with a child! SIP).  He calls in Sherlock on his most difficult cases, he sides with Sherlock even to the chagrin of his own staff (Anderson, your back. Now!), he shows up at Baker Street for Christmas, and the hug he gives Sherlock in TEH is absolutely heartfelt. 

I do like Lestrade and the warmth he brings to the relationship. One of the many elements that makes this show great.

Oh yes!  I love LeStrade and love his relationship with Sherlock.  That hug is one of my favourite things in all the episodes. Sherlock approaches all of the three (John, Mrs Hudson, LeStrade) in awkward ways when he returns, but LeStrade is just so delighted to see him.  In TRF, I feel LeStrade completely trusts Sherlock despite all the evidence against him.  He has to reluctantly follow procedure, but he's happy to let Sherlock escape. 

I have still to watch the last two episodes (saving them!), but I watched the very beginning of TSOT last night and loved LeStrade even more when he was prepared to give up everything he'd worked for (and even his reputation) just to save Sherlock.  Of course he respects his abilities and finds him useful, but he deeply cares for him too. 

That's why I find it difficult to accept him taking money for spying on Sherlock.   But maybe it's not to do with money at all.  Maybe it's just because he cares that he's helping Mycroft (who also cares).  They're just working together to protect him. 

Ylse wrote:

But of course, Sherlock hates it. His supicion, not always false, that Lestrade sometimes informs Mycroft could explain why he feigns not to remember Lestrade's first name (it seems quite impossible that he would genuinely forget it all the time), and why he often adresses him snarky or ironic comments(whereas with John he avoids it as much as he can), in spite of the fact that he considers him a friend. He cares for Lestrade, but can't help seeing him somehow, either as an authority figure himself, or as an agent of the authority figure he resents the most, Mycroft.

I believe this is an excellent analysis. I can't see Lestrade taking money from Mycroft, one, because he's a very decent man, and two - more importantly - because he certainly doesn't need such a mundane incentive. He cares, and he knows that Mycroft cares, so they team up in looking after Sherlock. It's as simple as that.

It also fits in with what Lestrade says in THOB: "I don't do what your brother tells me." I don't think he's lying there, I don't think he's subordinate to Mycroft in that way, he doesn't take orders from him. They collaborate. That's a big difference (though maybe not in Sherlock's eyes).

And it does explain Sherlock's strangely ambivalent treatment of Lestrade. Thanks for pointing that out and putting it so well. He truly likes (and esteems) Lestrade, but then he really isn't very nice to him at times. "You're a detective - of sorts..." (TSOT). Honestly, there must be a reason for that sort of behaviour. I think your interpretation is spot on - there is a  part of Lestrade he dislikes, and that must be that paternal, not to say patronising, streak.

Sheesh, I'd love a prequel about how those two met, and in what circumstances.


Btw The Hug in TEH, did Lestrade know at that point that Sherlock was alive? Was it all over the news already? Or was it a genuine surprise? In that case, he's certainly not as surprised as he should have been...


And another btw, I think the thing about Lestrade's first name is really getting ridiculous. I may believe that Sherlock truly didn't know it until THOB (because he never bothered to find out), and I may believe that he still got it wrong once or twice afterwards, either accidentally (still not thinking it's relevant) or on purpose (wanting to annoy Lestrade), but the way he comes up with "Gavin" as late as in TSOT is just laughable.
 

Last edited by La Jolie (August 5, 2014 6:15 pm)