BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Go on then...what are your theories?

Fetchinketch · July 6, 2012 2:09 am

I think that, like in "The Final Problem", Sherlock did not really expect to survive the encounter. He certainly made some arrangements that might allow him to survive, but he fully expected to fall to his death with Moriarty.

ancientsgate · July 6, 2012 2:29 am

Fetchinketch wrote:
I think that, like in "The Final Problem", Sherlock did not really expect to survive the encounter. He certainly made some arrangements that might allow him to survive, but he fully expected to fall to his death with Moriarty.

Do you think he planned to take Moriarty over the edge with him? Interesting. I never thought of that. Because if M had lived, he would have stood at the rooftop and watched as S went over, and the ruse of a net breaking S's fall and of him living through it would have been for nothing.

M offing himself sure put a kink in the plans, didn't it. Sherlock's reaction is hard to watch.

Fetchinketch · July 6, 2012 4:49 am

If you go back to ACD canon, as soon as the message about the sick English lady in the hotel arrived, Sherlock knew that Moriarty was on his way to settle his score with him. That is why, though he knew it was hoax, he let Watson leave.

Also, re-reading "The Final Problem" reminded me that Watson had published that story in an effort to clear Sherlock's name, because friends of Moriarty were smearing his name. I had forgotten that part.

kazza474 · July 6, 2012 12:08 pm

Fetchinketch wrote:
I think that, like in "The Final Problem", Sherlock did not really expect to survive the encounter. He certainly made some arrangements that might allow him to survive, but he fully expected to fall to his death with Moriarty.

Yes, I mentioned that 2 pages back. It would explainhow he was sure any plans made 'down below' wouldn't be witnessed by Moriarty.

Ancientsgate, you echoed most of my theory including debunking the second body/dummy nonsense. Which somewhat confuses me, I have obviously readyour previous posts wrong.

As for the 'John would have taken his pulse' part - you have said it yourself. He didn't get a chance to do it as his hand was dragged away. You also agreed that he was in a bad state so thinking clearly wasn't really going to happen. Yes he was an army doctor, but he wasn't as close to his patients there as he was to Sherlock, I am sure.But that is really neither here nor there as he never had a chance to let instinct kick in, if it was going to.

Sherlock Holmes · July 6, 2012 3:44 pm

Actually, Moriarty killing himself was very convenient for Sherlock. What would he have done if he hadn't? Tried to take him over the edge with him? But then they would have both landed in the net and both lived...or did he have some kind of signal to his Homeless Network to let them know whether they should put the net out or not. Maybe if they saw him and Jim fighting on the edge they were told to just leave it, but if he was on the ledge on his own they should get ready with the net?

Also, did Sherlock know that John would come back to the hospital or was it just coincidence that John's taxi pulled up just as Sherlock was about to do it, enabling him to pass on his "note"?

(Whilst we're on the topic I favour the net & no drugs or rubber ball theory....don't think Sherlock actually needed to stop his pulse, as well as being concussed, confused and devastated John only held his wrist for a few seconds before the woman pushed his hand away).

Arya · July 6, 2012 6:15 pm

Sherlock Holmes wrote:
Actually, Moriarty killing himself was very convenient for Sherlock. What would he have done if he hadn't? Tried to take him over the edge with him?

Sorry if I'm being ignorant, I haven't watched the rooftop scene very many times yet...
Didn't Moriarty or Sherlock say that if Moriarty was still alive, then Sherlock could save his friends? And isn't that why Moriarty killed himself? Therefore, if Moriarty was still alive, Sherlock wouldn't have had to fake killing himself.
Just my take on it...

ancientsgate · July 6, 2012 9:01 pm

Sherlock Holmes wrote:
Also, did Sherlock know that John would come back to the hospital or was it just coincidence that John's taxi pulled up just as Sherlock was about to do it, enabling him to pass on his "note"?

Sherlock was behind getting John to rush off to Mrs. Hudson. Knew full well that John would go running to her side. And I suppose he also knew that John would take one look, turn right around, hail a taxi, and come back to St. Bart's. So Sherlock had a time frame to work there.

I just think the whole Moriarty thing on the rooftop, him offing himself, etc, is too weird. No way could Sherlock have predicted that he would do that. In fact, IMO Moriarty taking his own life in that way is not within his usual character-- he's too narcissistic to off himself in such an ugly way. In fact, I think he's too narcissistic to off himself at all! ('Course my theory is that he's not dead, any more than Sherlock is).

How does Sherlock function with no sleep? I believe he's 100% human and subject to all the laws of the space-time continuum and needs of the flesh as the rest of us. Truth is, people make mistakes, often fatal mistakes, when sleep deprived. The man does not sleep, eat, or drink anything, at least not where others can see. We know he probably pees, since we saw him in the loo with Kitty, lol--- but maybe he just went in there to wash his hands. Goodness. I totally agree with John's comment, "There were times I didn't even think you were human." I can understand that. But anyway, with no sleep or food, how are we supposed to believe he can arrange all of these intricate orchestrations of people and resources? I'm no good at hand-waving.... maybe this is a time when I should just hand-wave and accept. Interesting to think about, anyway.

ancientsgate · July 6, 2012 9:04 pm

Arya wrote:
Sorry if I'm being ignorant, I haven't watched the rooftop scene very many times yet...
Didn't Moriarty or Sherlock say that if Moriarty was still alive, then Sherlock could save his friends? And isn't that why Moriarty killed himself? Therefore, if Moriarty was still alive, Sherlock wouldn't have had to fake killing himself.
Just my take on it...

No, Moriarty told Sherlock that he could save his (Sherlock's) friends only if he (Sherlock) killed himself. M's people would be watching, and unless they saw Sherlock die, the next step was 3 bullets, one each for John, Mrs. Hudson and Lestrade. "You can torture me, you can do anything you want to me, but unless you die, they're dead," or words to that effect. So when Sherlock got all happy and relieved and sang, "I've got you!" to Moriarty, IOW, I have you, and you can call off the dogs somehow, so I don't have to take a nosedive, Moriarty said, "Good luck with that," pulled the gun and ate it.

Arya · July 6, 2012 9:36 pm

ancientsgate wrote:
So when Sherlock got all happy and relieved and sang, "I've got you!" to Moriarty, IOW, I have you, and you can call off the dogs somehow, so I don't have to take a nosedive, Moriarty said, "Good luck with that," pulled the gun and ate it.

That's what I meant. So if that's true, then maybe you're right. Maybe Moriarty isn't dead. Either way, I doubt Moriarty is coming back anytime soon (the whole 'this isn't a show about one hero and one villan' thing). It would be rather interesting if they brought him back in a season or two, though

Arya · July 6, 2012 9:41 pm

ancientsgate wrote:
But anyway, with no sleep or food, how are we supposed to believe he can arrange all of these intricate orchestrations of people and resources? I'm no good at hand-waving.... maybe this is a time when I should just hand-wave and accept. Interesting to think about, anyway.

That's why I think it's some simple solution that none of us have thought up yet. We're probably just over thinking.

kazza474 · July 7, 2012 4:23 am

The are plenty of examples of people who can go without sleep and food etc and still function at the same level as usual. Holy men in Tibet and similar people who are in tune with their bodies etc do it all the time.
Sherlock has always been portrayed in this way. It is a learned skill and not everyone can master it.

So it is quite believable in this instance, Sherlock is plotting to save his life.

tobeornot221b · July 7, 2012 5:22 am

The truth is much more simple than we all think:
Going by a newspaper article before the Moriarty trial a sentence runs: "In a twist worthy of a Conan Doyle novella…"

We know that Sherlock and John read the papers.
By then at the latest Sherlock must have known that there is someone called "Conan Doyle" who writes novellas that could be of interest to him.
Six weeks until Reichenbach at this time. Time enough to read the canon.
Of course Sherlock would have done this.
(Kazza, now you are delighted, aren't you? )
Having read "The Final Problem" Sherlock then knew for sure that he would survive the fall – in contrast to Moriarty.
With this in mind: easy-peasy to make plans for his survival.
(Those who read always have the upper hand... )

ancientsgate · July 7, 2012 7:16 am

kazza474 wrote:
The are plenty of examples of people who can go without sleep and food etc and still function at the same level as usual. Holy men in Tibet and similar people who are in tune with their bodies etc do it all the time.
Sherlock has always been portrayed in this way. It is a learned skill and not everyone can master it. So it is quite believable in this instance, Sherlock is plotting to save his life.

Holy men in Tibet are not racing around city streets, engaging in hand to hand combat and gun play, and spending lots of energy being "clever". I think it's funny to attempt to liken Sherlock's aversion to sleep, food and water to a Tibetan monk's way of life. Thanks for putting forth the idea, but I don't buy the comparison.

kazza474 · July 7, 2012 7:51 am

......... Thanks for putting forth the idea, but I don't buy the comparison.

First off, monks are just an example. Some 'Everyday' people can and do have these same abilities. And you really should delve deeper into the original stories as these qualities are referred to there also. So there is nothing 'to buy' it is just a fact of this character.
Just another wonder in the character of Sherlock really!

Davina · July 7, 2012 10:53 am

I agree that this aspect of Sherlock is yet another nod to the canon where it is made quite clear by Dr. Watson that this is exactly what Sherlock Holmes would do when occupied with a case or a problem to be solved. He is too busy to eat.

KeepersPrice · July 7, 2012 12:07 pm

Well heck, Sherlock could have snacked on crisps and soda from the vending machine down the hall from the lab for all we know.

I always found it interesting that John was angry with Sherlock for not rushing back to Baker Street with him when he thought Mrs. Hudson was shot. Wasn't Sherlock still on the run from his escape from the police the night before and might be captured if he went back home? He wouldn't just be wanted for potentially kidnapping children, etc. Now he's also a fugitive who fired shots at the police and took a hostage. His prison sentence would not be pretty. And my goodness, wouldn't Mrs. Hudson be taken to the hospital by the EMT's instead of languishing at Baker Street? Either John wasn't thinking too clearly when he rushed out, pissed off as hell, or Moftiss began to throw logic out the window as they pounded down the home stretch toward the big climax. My guess is the latter since the more drama the better.

Sorry, getting off topic from the theory of the fall. I do think Sherlock hit the pavement - but not in an unbroken fall from 3 stories up. The fall was broken and covered up by distraction. How it was broken is what remains to be known and what we will continue to debate until 3:1 for sure.

kazza474 · July 7, 2012 12:45 pm

Yes, I'm also intrigued how quickly theorists forget Sherlock AND John for that matter are fugitives. One could assume that perhaps the phone call came from supposedly her neighbour? (Mrs Turner, lol) "Listen, just letting you know Mrs H has been shot, I think you should come quickly" or similar. In that circumstance, John just got back to Baker St asap hoping to get there before she was taken away in an ambulance.

KeepersPrice · July 7, 2012 1:22 pm

Yes, a bit funny that the police situation became a non-issue/disappearing act in the later stages of TRF. You'd think they would have staked out Baker Street and pounced on John when he came rushing back or they would have come knocking on the door of the lab knowing that Sherlock spent a lot of time there. I'm still thinking all this was conveniently forgotten by Moftiss so the plot could move forward unhampered. However, if you want to keep the theories going, perhaps we can assume Mycroft & Company were in on this from the start and used their clout to call off Scotland Yard in order to let Sherlock play it out.

kazza474 · July 7, 2012 1:28 pm

KeepersPrice wrote:
Yes, a bit funny that the police situation became a non-issue/disappearing act in the later stages of TRF. You'd think they would have staked out Baker Street and pounced on John when he came rushing back or they would have come knocking on the door of the lab knowing that Sherlock spent a lot of time there. I'm still thinking all this was conveniently forgotten by Moftiss so the plot could move forward unhampered. However, if you want to keep the theories going, perhaps we can assume Mycroft & Company were in on this from the start and used their clout to call off Scotland Yard in order to let Sherlock play it out.

Ah, you prompted my memory. I recall thinking " If I was Lestrade would I be trying to find Sherlock?" Answer - probably not, lol. For a start he'd outsmart Lestrade easily enough; and secondly, Lestrade was still a friend & believed in Sherlock near the end. I know the superior officer was hell bent on getting Sherlock, but Lestrade could have thwarted those attempts somewhat.
Then on the other hand 'fugitives' probably weren't Lestrade's division huh?

vicjperry · July 7, 2012 5:00 pm

The theories posted so far have proven that the producers/writers, unwillingly (or were they?) turning us all into Sherlocks. God bless them.That being said, it seems that the more 'deductions' that get posted, the more they seem to disregard the one critical clue; "It's a clue that everyone missed that's out of character for Sherlock". That seems to be the illusive part in most theories. What characteristic?

I'll get in line and be among the many posters who are laughed at by the producers. All great fun.

1. The one characteristic that seems to stick out to me is that Sherlock (whether he's about to die or not) would never abandon his cell phone. He does so before he jumps. Think of the info on that phone for all to see. If he were to commit suicide he would have wiped his phone clean of all info.

2. We see a few POV shots from the roof. At one point there are two buses parked in front. Just after that shot, Sherlock has Jim hanging over the roof on the opposite side of the building. Hiding the bus view? Why? Did he get his 'homeless network' to take the buses and arrive at a precise time? They could have all ran out and hid in the entrance that they wheeled his body in after the fall. It was not gated or closed.

3. He gets Watson to stand in a certain spot as to not see this all taking place.

4. Was someone in front of St. Bart's standing and waiting to give the gang the signal to come running out to catch Sherlock (net, group catch, whatever) and the phone drop was the signal?

5. We see the jump, but the impact is a separate view. (cut) Could the group have caught him then gently dropped him to the ground and supplied the blood from Molly? (There could have been a hundred people catch him but the closeup made sure we didn't see others involved.)

6. John was hit by the bike guy allowing time for the group to run and hide in the entrance. (Or, they all piled out previously when John went to the aid of Mrs. Hudson and John's position was meant for him not to see the catch when he came back) Then when he got up and attempted to take Sherlock's pulse, he was stressed, dizzy, etc.? ( Poison plants, ball under the arm and such would make no difference here as John was so discombobulated and people pulled his hand away)

7. Molly's 'gang' came out and wheeled him away. The closeup shot of the "not Sherlock" to me, was production detail and nothing else.

8. Robert Downey Jr. was disguised as a chair in the movie. Sherlock's body was disguised as a sidewalk in this episode. (Okay, just kidding on that one as I tend get smat assian sometimes.)

No matter how many ways we come up with conclusions, or rather, 'deductions', that "Clue we all missed" sticks in my gut! It has to be the phone.