BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Johnlock: The Official Debate

Schmiezi · July 21, 2014 11:06 am

besleybean wrote:
Because apparently there will be a reason they won't show them actually together, like a real couple and looking happy.

Maybe it's because I am not a native speaker, but... shouldn't this read, "There would be a reason they wouldn't show them together"?

besleybean · July 21, 2014 12:01 pm

I feel my Englsih future tense is correct...
But where's Stephen Fry when you need him?!

Last edited by besleybean (July 21, 2014 12:04 pm)

Germansherlockfan · July 21, 2014 9:04 pm

SusiGo wrote:
But then of course they are lying constantly.

I´m rather new here, so I haven´t read through all the threads yet, but I have seen several posts now about Moftiss lying to the fans and I wonder what they have said so far that had been untrue or false. Maybe someone can tell where I can read about it, I´m really interested to hear about this.

SusiGo · July 21, 2014 9:07 pm

They have said this in various interviews and it is also in the extras of the series 3 DVD. Especially Moffat has time and again stated that they cannot be trusted because they do not want to give anything away in interviews. Here is just one example. You will find more when looking for Moffat interviews about Sherlock:

http://dudeufugly.tumblr.com/post/92307830673/audience-member-i-was-just-wondering-about-the

besleybean · July 21, 2014 9:12 pm

Yes, I'm sure most people would understand why the Sherlock team woudl not wish to reveal major plot in advance.
Not really much point in immediiately answering their own cliffhangers!

Germansherlockfan · July 21, 2014 9:17 pm

SusiGo wrote:
They have said this in various interviews and it is also in the extras of the series 3 DVD. Especially Moffat has time and again stated that they cannot be trusted because they do not want to give anything away in interviews. Here is just one example. You will find more when looking for Moffat interviews about Sherlock:

http://dudeufugly.tumblr.com/post/92307830673/audience-member-i-was-just-wondering-about-the

Thank you very much! I already wachted the extras of series 3 on the DVD, but I guess I haven´t completely payed attention, because I totally missed this. So I will have to watch them again and watch Moffat´s parts very closely this time!

besleybean · July 21, 2014 9:19 pm

Glad it's not just me, cos I completely missed it, too!
Think I was just so disappointed over the lack of commentaries, this time,,,tho the features are good.
The coverage on The Fall is excellent.

A lovely light · July 22, 2014 7:00 pm

Throwing my 2 cents into the game. I am closing reading about Sherlock series only for a couple of weeks, so i didn't have years to turn every word and every image in my head. It may be that in 2 years when we get the next episodes, i might think something different from now.

As how the last episode ended, for me between Sherlock and John is a wonderful strong friendship. Even a wrong foot from one or from the other coudn't break it and that speaks volumes.

I feel that from this point on is the decision of the writers and producers were the journey will go as it may go credibly in both directions.

If they feel they want to bring a romantic relationship, it woudn't come to my head to say "no, that is not true to the Sherlock they created in the first episode or to the ACD canon". And if done and paced rightly, it can be a great thing not only for LGBT community. I haven't see till now a series who develops a LGBT relationship so slowly and natural (if they are, please tell me). Normally LGBT-persons are very cliche on TV films, it is hardly to see how normal they actually are as they are put from the begining in a special situation and thier sexuality is put in the spotlight making them more important from the sexuality point of view than from their human being as a whole point of view. Just my impression, i don't want to hurt someone feelings about this.

If they will stay only as friends, it will be for me wonderful. I go with Mouse, writing such credible special friendships is a very hard thing to do, as it is quite a cliche to develop every good chemistry to romantic level and that make it for me too expected.

I will rather not asset the series against other canons and other films. I will take it as it is and let me surprised about the way the writers will choose to go. Till now was so wonderful crafted that i am sure it will be like that from now on. I also do not give too much attention to what the writers says till the series is not over.It is very clear that they cannot tell everything, it would only spoil the adventure. I rememeber how sad i was about Rowling saying after she ended the Harry Potter saga that Dumbledore was gay. What is the point? If you didn't put it in the books enough clear, just let it like that. I would have find it wonderful if she would have made it canon in the books , but as she didn't , i prefer the mystery and the interpretation each reader give for himself.

About the Johnlock interpretations, i read some (i am not into fanfics of any fandom outthere also not into fanart, but many discussion are very interesting). Some brings very intriguing symbols or interpretations to the light. As i haven't much experience with the whole LGBTsymbolsitic before, i learn a lot from it (I confess i haven't heard before about demisexuality, does it make me a very ignorant person?). I come from a country where till i was 14 LGB was prohibited, so no chance to see even a slightly reference on TV ( i even didn't heard the name), after that they didn't need the symbolistic in TV as everything went quite quick free so i was not aware about the whole "secret language". So, thank you to all Johnlockers for bringing me some knowledge i was not aware till now.

But as with symbols goes, for some these symbols are more powerful and telling and for some are less (everybody knows what a cross mean in the western civilization, but it won't have the same power or meaning for all). That is way for me it will be a romantic relationship when we will get a clear expressed one.

Last edited by A lovely light (July 22, 2014 7:03 pm)

SusiGo · July 24, 2014 6:59 pm

This is one of the most convincing posts I have seen. Please bear in mind that this is about a film that Steven and Mark have expressly stated is being an inspiration for Sherlock and that Mark has named his favourite film ever.

http://skulls-and-tea.tumblr.com/post/92670824071/i-should-have-been-more-daring-with-the-private

So if Billy Wilder deeply regretted not having made his Holmes expressly homosexual and this film is the favourite film of a gay writer and actor who in turn gets the chance to realise his very own version of Sherlock Holmes - see what I mean?

tonnaree · July 24, 2014 7:16 pm

SusiGo wrote:
This is one of the most convincing posts I have seen. Please bear in mind that this is about a film that Steven and Mark have expressly stated is being an inspiration for Sherlock and that Mark has named his favourite film ever.

http://skulls-and-tea.tumblr.com/post/92670824071/i-should-have-been-more-daring-with-the-private

So if Billy Wilder deeply regretted not having made his Holmes expressly homosexual and this film is the favourite film of a gay writer and actor who in turn gets the chance to realise his very own version of Sherlock Holmes - see what I mean?

Read that today Susi and thought the same thing. Coincidance?

SusiGo · July 24, 2014 7:19 pm

No, it is not. Wilder was not gay as far as I know and yet he wanted to take this step and go in a new direction with his Sherlock Holmes but could not. He called his work on the film "a waste" because of not having been able to do what he wanted to do.

Therefore I simply cannot believe that Mark can love this film so much and call Holmes' love for Watson "desperately unspoken" and then show us all those signs (together with his co-creators) in his own version just for fun or queerbaiting or whatever. Because today they are free to do things that Wilder could not do nearly fifty years ago.

Last edited by SusiGo (July 24, 2014 7:21 pm)

besleybean · July 24, 2014 8:20 pm

But oinly if they want to.

Liberty · July 26, 2014 11:34 am

SusiGo wrote:
No, it is not. Wilder was not gay as far as I know and yet he wanted to take this step and go in a new direction with his Sherlock Holmes but could not. He called his work on the film "a waste" because of not having been able to do what he wanted to do.

Therefore I simply cannot believe that Mark can love this film so much and call Holmes' love for Watson "desperately unspoken" and then show us all those signs (together with his co-creators) in his own version just for fun or queerbaiting or whatever. Because today they are free to do things that Wilder could not do nearly fifty years ago.

I suppose I see this the other way around. It would have been difficult for Billy Wilder to make Sherlock explicitly gay (but if it hadn't been difficult, then presumably he would have made him gay). So there is only this unspoken love.

Whereas Moftiss could easily have made the characters gay in this day and age. It wouldn't be an issue. It doesn't seem to make sense to have highly repressed characters and secret messages and more "unspoken love", when they could just meet and fall in love openly in a way that they never could in earlier adaptations. It just seems a very odd way to go about it.

besleybean · July 26, 2014 11:51 am

I've always felt this was the basis of the guys saying they didn't wtite it as the boys being a couple.
If they'd wanted to, they woul have just done it.
Why not?

Last edited by besleybean (July 26, 2014 11:52 am)

SolarSystem · July 26, 2014 12:30 pm

Maybe they just take their time. There are lots and lots of tv shows out there in which boy meets girl and it takes them forever before they fully realize that they are in love. Why should boy and boy meet and realize they're in love right at the beginning? There still are lots of stories to tell, and I actually think it's quite appealing that we just have to wait. We had to wait for a hug until TSoT... had they already given us that hug in the second episode, it would have been less exciting, imo.

Last edited by SolarSystem (July 26, 2014 12:31 pm)

Mattlocked · July 26, 2014 2:55 pm

Right, Solar.
Lets call it.... arc of suspense.

besleybean · July 26, 2014 3:49 pm

I think the suspense is in the mysteries.

tonnaree · July 26, 2014 4:36 pm

Mattlocked wrote:
Right, Solar.
Lets call it.... arc of suspense.

I prefer the phrase "slow burn."

A lovely light · July 26, 2014 4:45 pm

Liberty wrote:
Whereas Moftiss could easily have made the characters gay in this day and age. It wouldn't be an issue. It doesn't seem to make sense to have highly repressed characters and secret messages and more "unspoken love", when they could just meet and fall in love openly in a way that they never could in earlier adaptations. It just seems a very odd way to go about it.

You live then in a very tolerant world. In mine there is still an issue with "being gay". Sure, at the surface our society accepts LGBT and is known as not being PC to say something against the LGBT community. However, there is still an issue with "coming out"; there are still loads of article in papers when a celebrity comes out, loads of speculations in internet about who is gay and reproaches why s/he doesn't come out . The members of pop culture, especially members of boy bands are very oft seen as "gay" just because they dance and this judgment is made in a derogatory way (as well as derogatory with music for housewifes, as if being housewife amputates half of your brain). There are sports or arts where is not fashionable for boys to get in because of the "gay stigma". There are sports who are so manly that the sportler come out only after their active carrer is done.

That is still an issue in the man-world with the acceptance of the gay culture - how many gay action heros do we have in the last years Hollywood -films? We have very serious drama where being gay is a central thema, but where are the "here is our hero, who happens to be gay, action , action, action" movies?

besleybean · July 26, 2014 4:47 pm

I dunno, but it's not in BBC Sherlock.