BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » BBC policy and Johnlock

SusiGo · June 13, 2014 4:56 pm

I think this subject is important enough to deserve its own thread. In 2009 BBC founded a research commission on the representation of LGB characters in BBC programmes. More than 9,500 people participated in the survey. There have been comprehensive reports about the findings of the commission which are all available from this website:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/diversity/audiences/lgb-consultation.html

This is an excellent meta interpreting the results of the report with regard to "Sherlock". (In the report itself no individual show is mentioned).

http://loudest-subtext-in-television.tumblr.com/post/88272799479/softly-softly-the-bbcs-2009-lgb-research-commission

I am posting this in order to confute the popular argument that Johnlock will never happen because BBC does not care/dare/does not want to lose viewers/money. If anything, it is the other way around. BBC explicits wishes for a comprehensive representation of LGB characters in their programmes, encourages writers to create scripts including such characters and develops ways of how to introduce viewers wo may be uncomfortable with seeing such characters on screen.

We should not forget that one creator of the show is gay, the writer of John's blog is gay, Ben Stephenson, the BBC drama director is gay and expressly promotes and encourages such content in his projects.

I hope for an interesting discussion. And if you make the effort to read the texts, especially the meta, you will not be disappointed.

Last edited by SusiGo (June 13, 2014 4:57 pm)

SolarSystem · June 13, 2014 5:29 pm

Let me just add: Ben Stephenson obviously didn't have a problem with one of the BBC's shows, namely "Torchwood", to have two men in a relationship in a way that didn't let that relationship take center stage. They just happened to be in love, for the audience to see, but it wasn't about that gay couple in the first place.
This is a way that in my opinion would definitely work for "Sherlock". It's fun, it's a bit romantic. but it doesn't make the gay relationship the most important thing in the show.

SusiGo · June 13, 2014 5:35 pm

Here is one interesting point just to show you the direction the report takes:

LGB people want to see more, and greater diversity within, LGB portrayal

Specifically:

Diversity within portrayal of LGB people, showing LGB people of all different backgrounds and life experiences. In particular, they want to see more lesbian women and depictions of bisexual identity, as well as alternatives to stereotypes of gay men.
Integrated portrayal of LGB people across all genres, so that their sexual orientation is not always a defining factor or the focal point for their inclusion.
More portrayal of LGB people overall and in particular that this content is flagged up, and broadcasters are seen to have pride and confidence in it.

Now think of what we get in the show even if we exclude Sherlock and John for a moment:

- Harry, John's lesbian sister
- Irene who is bisexual
- the gay couple in HoB
- Kenny Prince and his lover Raoul
- (Jim from IT - an impersonation but nevertheless a character)

This tells us that the makers are comfortable with showing a variety of LGB characters in minor parts although Irene is probably even more than a minor part.
But then why do they not show major characters as gay, lesbian, or bisexual? Answer: They do.

So the BBC has founded a research commission and has spent lots of time and money on this research. Why should they commission a show that teases LGB people and creates "gay running gags" which will probably piss off the very group they focus on - provided they remain just gags and have no function in the overall plot.

Last edited by SusiGo (June 13, 2014 5:56 pm)

Sherlock Holmes · June 13, 2014 7:24 pm

You're right. There is absolutely nothing to stop the BBC making Johnlock real. It would be up to the makers of the show. People who argue it *can* never happen, are wrong. That doesn't mean to say that it *will* ever happen.

lil · June 13, 2014 8:22 pm

Yes was an interesting report and a convincing metacrit.

I never thought the BBC would fear doing a gay Holmes adaptation...they have long been in the unique position on not having to worry about backers or moneymen who almost never take risks .

The wheel turns and nothing is new.....
Exciting to think maybe this time something new will turn up.
Depressing to think they will go TPLOSH style...

I certainly hope they resolve something...as the report shows..everyone is getting peeved with unhappy endings and ambiguity ..something Sherlock has almost done to death.

SusiGo · June 13, 2014 8:25 pm

Yes, I agree. And I also liked the part about going slowly in order to reach the viewers who would be uncomfortable with a same-sex love story if it was there from the beginning but who can grow to like the characters and later accept their personal development.

Sherlock Holmes · June 13, 2014 9:51 pm

I still don't think Johnlock will ever happen. It's the stuff of fandom, not canon. I can see it when I'm looking for it, when I want to look for it, but otherwise, I just see two very close friends who love each other (in a completely non-sexual way).

Pav · June 13, 2014 10:07 pm

The meta was really interesting. I definitely agree that we need more authentic LGB characters whose sexual orientation isn't the defining part of their characters.

SusiGo wrote:
And I also liked the part about going slowly in order to reach the viewers who would be uncomfortable with a same-sex love story if it was there from the beginning but who can grow to like the characters and later accept their personal development.

I really like the idea that a TV show can help people uncomfortable with homosexuality change their opinion about LGB in real life by presenting characters that these people get to like and that turn out to be gay only later, characters that aren't defined by their sexual orientation and that are ordinary people like them (or not ordinary like Sherlock).
I'm optimistic about Johnlock, it looks very promising that we can actually see it in the show.

Last edited by Pav (June 13, 2014 10:09 pm)

jenosborn · June 13, 2014 10:52 pm

Sherlock Holmes wrote:
I still don't think Johnlock will ever happen. It's the stuff of fandom, not canon. I can see it when I'm looking for it, when I want to look for it, but otherwise, I just see two very close friends who love each other (in a completely non-sexual way).

I do agree that although Johnlock is an intoxicating diversion (it diverts me greatly! )
I see it only in the realm of fan fiction.   Although it can be argued that Moftiss have produced the
best Sherlock twist on 'fan fiction' ever, via their series (so, it's possible that future TV Johnlock is not
out of the question) , I do think there is an aching charm within the canon re: the understated pure love
between these 2 characters. I hope it stays what it is.   I think it's too iconic to be labeled.
To spell it out more explicitly would make the show lose its sparkle, for me.

An 'oh by the way they are gay' reveal only after years of getting to know any characters is encouraging
for any work of fiction.   It should become a non-issue, just as would 'oh I didn't notice he was
left-handed all along, huh, moving on..'

SolarSystem · June 14, 2014 9:16 am

Hm, I don't even think that you would have to spell it out explicitly - although the word "gay" is floating around already anyway, Mrs. Hudson, Irene and John have used it. The only one who never says anything about it (and probably never will) is Sherlock. And I think it could easily stay that way, you don't have to spell it out, you don't have to put a label on it. Even if Johnlock happened on the show, nobody has to talk about this, it can just happen, the viewers see it and can come to their own conclusions without John saying "Yes, we're a gay couple now."

SusiGo · June 14, 2014 9:23 am

Yes, I agree. In the report there was an example of a show in which the word gay is never used although it is clear that one or more characters are. It should be about love, I think most of us can agree on that. And love does not need any labels.

SolarSystem · June 14, 2014 9:29 am

Right, and that's actually how it should be! No heterosexual woman in any tv show ever says when getting together with a guy "Look, we're a heterosexual couple now!". They're just in love and together and that's it. Don't mention it, just show it.

besleybean · June 14, 2014 10:18 am

I agree and it's quite clear to me that John and Mary are a couple and Sherlock and John are best friends.

Last edited by besleybean (June 14, 2014 6:41 pm)

Sherlock Holmes · June 14, 2014 6:39 pm

Yeah, except they already have used the word 'gay' on this show, lots of times. It's sort of a running joke, especially with Mrs Hudson. If John and Sherlock ever did get together, there's no way she'd be able to resist passing a comment.

This Is The Phantom Lady · June 14, 2014 7:49 pm

I actually find Sherlock to be a great LGBT show, even if John seems to get pissed when people hint at Johnlock... but the show itself seems to be pretty open about the subject and not shy about it either...

I wouldn't want to see full on Johnlock, I like the hints in the show and the fans having their own theories etc... I would think it was fun somehow if there was a dream sequence or something that included it... but then again... nah.

I don't think a TV show should try to please the public at all, esp. not LGBT wise... weather it would try to please in the way of ignoring it completely, being homophobic or being totally 'Gay in your face!!' either...

Love should be love... no matter who you are

besleybean · June 14, 2014 8:12 pm

Or whatever kind of love it is.

This Is The Phantom Lady · June 14, 2014 8:28 pm

Exactly!

SolarSystem · June 14, 2014 9:04 pm

This Is The Phantom Lady wrote:
Love should be love... no matter who you are

Absolutely, and I don't think that anybody here said anything else.
And if they decide to give us Johnlock in the show, then it should just happen and they should not make a big fuss about it. They should not put any label on it and let the audience decide what it is they're seeing.

This Is The Phantom Lady · June 14, 2014 9:06 pm

I can't agree more, Solar!

Sherlock Holmes · June 15, 2014 6:58 pm

I would love to see non-Johnlock Johnlock, if you know what I mean...so that, for example, Sherlock and John have to pretend to be a couple for the sake of a case, and it involves a kiss.