That pic with that comment... hilarious, Susi. But it's a promo pic, right? Or do we see this in the show?

It is, you're absolutely right. Actually, I think there is next to no romance in the John-Mary-relationship at all. They just don't come across like two people who fell in love just recently and are about to get married/are newly married. Of course they aren't 17 anymore, they are grown-ups and maybe a bit more realistic about certain things when it comes to a relationship and being a married couple. But still... I don't feel it, I don't see it.

But you also have to be aware, that the fandom doesn't consist of Johnlock people only.
I love the bromance, love the subtext, but want the bromance to stay bromance and the subtext to stay subtext, this is how it's always been between Holmes and Watson and this is how I would like to see it continue if I'm being completely honest with myself. And I like to think (and hope) I'm not completely alone there.
I get a bit biased when it comes to Johnlock people after seeing all the bile and hatred they've managed to throw at Amanda Abbington on twitter so far, including tweeting explicit images of John and Sherlock right at her (?!?) and I have to admit I love Amanda Abbington as an actress and I love seeing her and Martin together.
So at the end of the day I really like seeing John and Mary together, e.g. I loved the Christmas scene when John forgives Mary (and  - hit me now - I quite liked seeing Sherlock and Janine together as well, and would love !! to have her back too).  I'm alright with Johnlock, as long as the Johnlockers realise and accept there are also those of us who don't ship it.
As far as the wedding is concerned, the episode revolves around the best man's speech, which is what makes it possible for the writers to bring in all those additional storylines, so what happened inside the church wouldn't have been in keeping with the story arch they've chosen for this episode and we all know what happened there.
We got to see so much John and Sherlock because Moftiss are trying to bring in Mary, make her part of the show and be accepted by the audience, but also want to still continue to let the show revolve mainly around John and Sherlock as the two leads. This is how I see it.
There were quite a few sweet moments between John and Mary in that episode, it's also about a bit about wanting to see them or not. And if John isn't really in love with Mary, why was he so clear about his wedding day being the most important day of his life when he asked Sherlock to be his best man?
I think Mary fits the pattern quite well, she is just as flawed as John and Sherlock are. I can't see why Mary behaves worse than Sherlock on a general scale, not included the things we don't know about her past yet of course, but so far I can't see much difference. I'd say they are pretty much equals and Sherlock knows this.
 
(Sorry if this post does not entirely belong in this section.)
 

But you cannot generalise and throw all Johnlockers into the same sack as those loonies who harrassed Amanda Abbington (considering the immaturity apparent in those death threats and pictures she received, they had to be some crazed teenagers). Similarly, not liking the character of Mary doesn´t automatically equal dislike of Amanda.

I think that people on this forum are polite and civil and are able to discuss their opinions about the show without throwing tantrums or belittling others. If some of them are Johnlockers and they see the show in that light that doesn´t mean you cannot see things differently and that you are somehow not entitled to your opinion.

And of course, none of us have power over Moftiss to interfere with things they actually write into the show.

Last edited by nakahara (June 5, 2014 11:15 am)

SusiGo wrote:

The idea of Mary and Sherlock being equals frankly appals me. If this is what Moftiss want me to believe, they have failed spectacularly. 

 Completely agree; I'm always nervous when it comes to criticising Moftiss, but the whole storyline, for me, moved into the realms of the ridiculous, and I feel quite sad that it turns out - it seems - that I'm on such a completely different wavelength to them, if indeed they are equating Mary's persona with Sherlock's.
I'm also driven crazy by the idea that some people seem to have that if you dislike Mary it's because you're an obsessive Johnlocker - that's as crazy as if I said those who like Mary, only like her because she's played by Martin's partner!!!
I'm not a Johnlocker and I had no problem with John getting married - as he did in canon.
I just hated the way Mary's story played out, and hate the fact that what she did is supposed to be redeemable/excusable in the light of what Sherlock did at the end.
She was prepared to sacrifice Sherlock's life for her own ends.
He was prepared to sacrifice his own life for John and Mary's happiness (although I still hate what he resorted to).
And in the light of all that, I don't like TSoT as an episode any more, because there are so many signs in it that Moftiss are about to throw canon out of the window, and go for sensationalism above credible and entertaining storylines.
I'm sorry to sound so critical, but at this point in time, that's how I feel; I think that's the problem when you have such a long hiatus - too much time to think about it!!

Tinks: To make myself clear - I like series 3 very much. I love daring plot twists and unexpected turns. For me it is mainly the scene in Baker Street that is difficult to accept but I (and others) have my found own explanation which surely belongs in another thread. Short version: In the light of all that happens in the mind palace scene and in Leinster Gardens I am convinced that Sherlock plays a game to make Mary feel secure. 

nakahara wrote:

But you cannot generalise and throw all Johnlockers into the same sack as those loonies who harrassed Amanda Abbington (considering the immaturity apparent in those death threats and pictures she received, they had to be some crazed teenagers). Similarly, not liking the character of Mary doesn´t automatically equal dislike of Amanda.
.

 
Oh, but I didn't generalise. I think I wrote I'm completely alright with all of the Johnlockers, as long as they accept that there are those who don't ship it.
I just wanted to hint there are several ways of watching this show, meaning as the Johnlockers find many hints and signs to confirm their theory, there also are those who see things in a different light and find their version just as justified and confirmed when watching the show.

(And yes, among grown-ups disliking a character should have nothing to do with the actress/actor behind it. The way things are though, it has turned out quite differently in many people's books.)

I actually loved the wedding between John and Mary. People point out the fact that we never saw the proposal or vows, which people love to use to justify their own opinion on a certain pairing, but if the wedding focused more on John and Mary, people will complain because this show is about Sherlock and John rather than John and Mary. 

Mary showed alot of character in this episode. John and Mary's scenes in this episode showed their relationship and love quite well I might add. I wished we have more, but from the little scenes we have, John and Mary adore each other as well as show their gratitude towards Sherlock's speech and taking care of the wedding. 

Also, my favorite scene is when Mary, Sherlock, and John all do their best to help Sholto. =DDD So beautiful. The trio is awesome! 

I know it is meant to be funny, but I never really liked the "drama queen" comment. I think it is quite unfair and totally contradicts John's former admiration for Sherlock's work.

Last edited by SusiGo (June 5, 2014 3:56 pm)

Agreement@Susie also.

I have to hope the situation with Mary will be resolved rather than swept under the carpet.
I am kinda shocked that people would think Mary and Sherlock similar at all morality wise or in any other way tbh.

That Mary deserves redemption or second chances or whatever...idk.
Didn't her second chance become a third when she chose to murder Magnusson and then become a fourth..when she shot Sherlock.....

It's very strongly implied Mary murdered people for money..Mary herself says she would be imprisoned for the rest of her life...Mary shot and killed an innocent person for the flimsiest and most selfish of reasons even after her supposed reformation.
Maybe people deserve second chances or w/e but what about the dead victims and families she left behind...don't they deserve justice and shouldn't Mary pay for those crimes...remorseful or not.Does a murderer get to say sorry..and then go free and make a happy life.....certainly not if they killed a member of your family hmmm.

The writing of TSOT was very careful and clever to show that Sherlocks shooting of Magnusson was both necessary and justified...we deffo didn't get that impression with Marys implied murders..in fact the opposite.
Justice has always been a strong Sherlock theme..and to leave SH@JW who work for and to an extent symbolise justice ....unless they can somehow whitewash Marys past....working with and even protecting a person like Mary makes for a very fubar situation imo...which was perhaps the writers intent.

As for Johnlock I am happy to go wherever the writers want to...Johns admiration and mancrush on Sherlock was very canon and obvious in s01@s02...in s03 John was less obvious..but Sherlock...now definitely reciprocates.

As for AA@twatter...seems rather stupid and unprofessional to make public comments and then  leave her social media blahs open to juveniles and public / stalkery fan comments...I do wonder what on earth she was expecting..stalkery fans come in three types...love / hate / insane.
All kudos to her as an actress and what happened was unfortunate ...hopefully though lessons learned.

Edit..sorry should prob be in Mary thoughts thread..but caught up reading both threads and forgot the order..X

Last edited by lil (June 5, 2014 4:42 pm)