BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Johnlock: The Official Debate

SusiGo · May 27, 2014 1:16 pm

Many art historians assume Leonardo was gay.

besleybean · May 27, 2014 4:47 pm

That's what I understood, too.

Last edited by besleybean (May 27, 2014 4:47 pm)

tonnaree · May 27, 2014 4:51 pm

I didn't think Leo was even a question at this point.

besleybean · May 27, 2014 4:53 pm

Hey, I never brought him in!

SusiGo · June 12, 2014 7:53 am

It seems Holmes and Watson knew about male beauty.

http://bbcsherlockftw.tumblr.com/post/88553992922/holmes-watson-so-heterosexual

Last edited by SusiGo (June 12, 2014 7:54 am)

tenderworld · June 12, 2014 12:05 pm

I'm new to this site, first post. Here's my contribution to "the debate." I started watching Sherlock very casually, not particularly interested, but then was drawn in after an episode or two, and ultimately completely obsessed. Why? Because of the relationship between John and Sherlock. Whether it will ever become sexual, I don't know -- I think not, actually. However, I can't see how it can be denied, after Season 3, that Sherlock is in love with John. I can lay out the evidence, going all the way back to Episode 1. But the conclusion I've reached is that there is NO WAY that the relationship that is depicted is friendship in the typical sense of that word. Which does not mean that the relationship is or will ever become sexual. It simply means that it is an emotional love affair. AND the writers are well aware of it, no matter what they say, and have intentionally strung us along over this long arc. I can't see the love ever actually becoming sexual, however, because then the "mystery" would be solved. Game over.

nakahara · June 12, 2014 12:07 pm

tenderworld wrote:
I'm new to this site, first post. Here's my contribution to "the debate." I started watching Sherlock very casually, not particularly interested, but then was drawn in after an episode or two, and ultimately completely obsessed. Why? Because of the relationship between John and Sherlock. Whether it will ever become sexual, I don't know -- I think not, actually. However, I can't see how it can be denied, after Season 3, that Sherlock is in love with John. I can lay out the evidence, going all the way back to Episode 1. But the conclusion I've reached is that there is NO WAY that the relationship that is depicted is friendship in the typical sense of that word. Which does not mean that the relationship is or will ever become sexual. It simply means that it is an emotional love affair. AND the writers are well aware of it, no matter what they say, and have intentionally strung us along over this long arc. I can't see the love ever actually becoming sexual, however, because then the "mystery" would be solved. Game over.

This!
I agree completely!

tonnaree · June 12, 2014 12:43 pm

tenderworld wrote:
I'm new to this site, first post. Here's my contribution to "the debate." I started watching Sherlock very casually, not particularly interested, but then was drawn in after an episode or two, and ultimately completely obsessed. Why? Because of the relationship between John and Sherlock. Whether it will ever become sexual, I don't know -- I think not, actually. However, I can't see how it can be denied, after Season 3, that Sherlock is in love with John. I can lay out the evidence, going all the way back to Episode 1. But the conclusion I've reached is that there is NO WAY that the relationship that is depicted is friendship in the typical sense of that word. Which does not mean that the relationship is or will ever become sexual. It simply means that it is an emotional love affair. AND the writers are well aware of it, no matter what they say, and have intentionally strung us along over this long arc. I can't see the love ever actually becoming sexual, however, because then the "mystery" would be solved. Game over.

Welcome!
Dive on in the water's lovely!

tenderworld · June 12, 2014 4:46 pm

So, um, isn't anyone going to argue with me?
Also, no takers for "Sherlock is in love with John" -- not necessarily John is in love with Sherlock?

SusiGo · June 12, 2014 4:52 pm

Well, I could write a lot of things about my opinion but I do not wish to repeat myself.

I am an ardent supporter of our "comprehensive Johnlock guide" thread so my opinion is a bit different than yours.

Short version:

I think Sherlock loves John and knows it.
I think John loves Sherlock but still has problems admitting it to himself.
I think there is a definite chance that we will see this in the series.
This is not canon but two passionate fanboys' version of the Holmes canon based loosely on the ACD stories and novels.
This is not a crime show and has never been declared one but has always been categorised as drama. The relationship between Sherlock and John is at the core of the show and for many fans the main attraction.

This is my opinion in a nutshell. Looking forward to talking about his with you.

Last edited by SusiGo (June 12, 2014 4:52 pm)

besleybean · June 12, 2014 4:59 pm

I reacted similarly to you, Susi.
I thought well yes, but I don't want to say it all again.
So I think your nutshell idea is brilliant!
So tenderworld, my summary is this:
- I see no Johnlock in Canon.
- I see no Johnlock in BBC Sherlock.
These 2 men love each other dearly, the series is about their relationship.
But it is bromance not romance.
In interview, the writers have said they don't mind people interpreting it as Johnlock, but they did not write it that way.
My signature is an abbreviated version of an Ian Hallard(husband of Mark Gatiss) quote and I can PM you the full version if you wish.
This for me, is the ultimate word on the issue.

SusiGo · June 12, 2014 5:09 pm

Regarding John:
He is a man who has serious problems with talking about his feelings (even when proposing to his girlfriend).
He is unable to keep a relationship with a woman (Mary excluded but then Sherlock had died and we know what happened with her).
He is a man who counts the suspicious texts his best friend is getting, shows clear signs of jealousy of Irene and Janine, a man who talks about the mysterious looking cheekbones of his best friend and grabs his knee and tells him he does not mind.
How much proof do you need?

besleybean · June 12, 2014 5:15 pm

I think many men fall into the 1st category. Does this make them all gay?
Obviously Mary is THE realatiionship, that's why he married her.
I don't think John was jealous of either Irene or Janine: he was surprised about both, but thought Irene dangerous- and was right.
He was teasing about the cheekbones.Many male feinds tease each other. Does this make them all gay?
The 'I don't mind' thing means he's not reactionary about loving freindships.

Last edited by besleybean (June 12, 2014 5:16 pm)

SusiGo · June 12, 2014 5:25 pm

No. And I have never said that John is gay but he might be bisexual.
If Mary is THE relationship then why are there so many viewers who do not see any romance between them? Why is the whole wedding episode more or less about Sherlock and John? Why does John kiss Mary the first time just to say goodbye and run after Sherlock? Why does Sherlock come back from the dead to save John from "that wife"?
And, yes, male friends tease each other. But not necessarily in this way.

I know that we have agreed to disagree on that.

besleybean · June 12, 2014 5:46 pm

There is no evidence that John is bisexual.
It really doesn't matter whether we see the romance between John and Mary or not, as long as they doI
Anyway, the show isn't about them.
People would moan like hell(especially me!) if we were seeing continuous sickly, sweet romance between John and Mary...I can use my imagination.
The Sign of Three was set around Sherlock's speech, which was entirely appropriate, as the show is about Sherlock and John.
Well for pity's sake, I think John ad Mary are kissing and doing a lot more that we don't see.
You think they show every kiss on screen? I refer you to the above!
John kisses Mary a lot more than he does Sherlock, or any other male, that's for sure.
He hardly runs after Sherlock.
Sherlock loves John. But they are not in-love.
'That wife' are not Sherlock's words.
And anyway, what way is teasing about cheek bones? It's a perfectly innocent jibe.

Last edited by besleybean (June 12, 2014 5:47 pm)

SusiGo · June 12, 2014 5:51 pm

Just one thing - everything we see in the mind palace is Sherlock's brain talking. This is not Moriarty but himself. There is no Molly and no Mycroft and no Redbeard and no Moriarty. It is all his own thoughts and subconscious.

besleybean · June 12, 2014 5:57 pm

I think he's dreaming/ imaging them in his oxygen lacking state...
Even so, 'that wife' neither means John thinks this or Sherlock loves John.

SusiGo · June 12, 2014 6:07 pm

Yes, of course he is imagining them but the words/thoughts/emotions are nevertheless his own. And I think nobody has denied that they are true.
And if coming back like that from a near-death condition is no proof of love … but maybe this is only me.

tenderworld · June 12, 2014 6:13 pm

Yes, I'm so late to the party. I'm sorry. Thanks for giving me your nutshell versions.
I agree with you, SusiGo. John is unable to deal with his feelings for Sherlock, is much more resistant. From the beginning he's been going on about "what will people think," whereas Sherlock is not hampered by this concern.
Regarding no evidence that John is bisexual -- I think part of the power of this story is that we see two people falling in love with each other over a very long arc, and sex is not part of it. I'm not a man, and I'm not gay or lesbian, and I have no particular interest in seeing two men get together for political or other reasons. But I will say that what the writers are doing with us is really amazing. Showing us real, intense, erotic love sans sex between two men that has us (or at least me) desparate for them to just be able to be together, somehow. Turns the "homosexual" thing on its head, with so many people wanting to make homosexuality about sex, when in fact it's about love. We see that here. It's love. Love. Maybe Season 4 (with Mary being dead), John can evolve to be able to actually requite Sherlock's love and stop living for what people think. THAT would be character development.

SusiGo · June 12, 2014 6:16 pm

I agree with you in most points.
But I am not sure who the people are "wanting to make homosexuality about sex". The gay people themselves? The homophobic people?
For me this relationship has always been about love. I want them to stay together, to be committed to each other, no Mary and no one else coming between them. And if they want to have sex, I am fine with that as well.