BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Johnlock: The Official Debate

SolarSystem · May 23, 2014 5:36 pm

Oh god yes!

Harriet · May 23, 2014 8:57 pm

"Agape" in wikipedia: Greek philosophers at the time of Plato and other ancient authors have used forms of the word to denote love of a spouse or family...

-> perfectly fine with me

besleybean · May 23, 2014 9:04 pm

It's most famously associated with Jesus.

Harriet · May 23, 2014 9:07 pm

But it wouldn't make sense to put the love between John and Sherlock in a religious context, would it?
I reckon the classical greek philosophy would be more appropriate.

besleybean · May 23, 2014 9:10 pm

Well I'm atheist.
But I am just saying, that's how agape was 1st presented to me.
But I'm fine with the Greeks.
As I keep saying; I like everything the Greek way.

Last edited by besleybean (May 23, 2014 9:11 pm)

Harriet · May 23, 2014 9:13 pm

So do you think it is a divine love among them? Or more of a pagan love?

besleybean · May 23, 2014 9:15 pm

Pagans believe in the divine.
I don't think the Sherlock-John love is either.
I think it's bromance.

Harriet · May 23, 2014 9:20 pm

You were talking about the christian agape tradition, so I was wondering if you mean the christian agape including all the neighbours or some spouse and family agape? Because I cannot find anything related to bromance with the term agape, that's why...

besleybean · May 23, 2014 9:22 pm

Ha ha.
Well I suppose more brotherly love, but not as in real brothers.
To be honest, the actual relationship is irrlevant.
It means more a selfless love that demands nothing.
Unconditional love.

Last edited by besleybean (May 23, 2014 9:23 pm)

Harriet · May 23, 2014 9:26 pm

But then, you were talking about the beauty of agape, and I still cannot see what you mean with that.
Or do you think it is irrelevant which greek word you use for it?
And I think, love is always unconditional, otherwise it would not be love. But maybe that's just me?

besleybean · May 23, 2014 9:28 pm

Well, I think there may be certain expectations in a marriage, or with a couple.

Harriet · May 23, 2014 9:32 pm

It's kind of confusing if one may use any term to describe something, and when a distinction is not relevant. But, well ...

But is it love when you say If you don't live up to my expectations I don't love you anymore?

besleybean · May 23, 2014 9:33 pm

Well no I don't think it is...
But that tends to happn to many couples.

Harriet · May 23, 2014 9:36 pm

So, we agree, true love is unconditional. Even between couples.

besleybean · May 23, 2014 9:38 pm

I find it hard to conceive of a couple that would not have some expectation of the other.
I mean I think they can still love the other, but it is not selfless, unconditional...

Harriet · May 23, 2014 9:40 pm

But that applies to friends, family, colleagues, ... as well. It has nothing to do with love.

Harriet · May 23, 2014 9:44 pm

Bedtime for me now, anyway... what is left to say is:

I have nothing against the use of agape for John and Sherlock because spouse and family is just fine, especially since I'm pro gay marriage.
But of course one might also think of the semi-divine bliss Johnlock might provide.

besleybean · May 23, 2014 9:45 pm

Yes, but I suppose a difference is we can choose our friends...
But indeed there are different kinds of love and relationships.
How I love my husband is different to how I love my children or my parents.
To spell it out.
I think Sherlock loves John unconditionally. He expects nothing in return.
I think he is genuinely surprised when he learns that John cares so much for him.
I think John is more demanding of Sherlock.

Last edited by besleybean (May 23, 2014 9:45 pm)

SusiGo · May 24, 2014 6:26 pm

As this is the Johnlock debate for Canon and all adaptations I would like to show you something non-Sherlock today.
I found a very interesting thing on tumblr. There has been a series of radio adaptations of original stories by BBC Radio 4 using lots of the original text. Now this is a quote from their 2008 version of "The Red-Headed League":

“Mary, bless her, had rightly guessed where I had been, and with whom. Yet she made no more than to accuse me of marrying her under the false pretense that while all the world believed she held my heart, in reality it belonged to Holmes.”

I find quite interesting because it is not a quote from the story. These crucial lines have obviously been inserted by the adaptor Vincent McInerney. But there is more. At the end Holmes sends Watson home to his wife. The way he says Watson's name is heartbreaking.
It seems Mr McInerney is a Johnlocker.

Harriet · May 24, 2014 6:52 pm

I'm sure gay (male) readers instantly recognized Sherlock and John as lovers, back in Victorian times.