BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Johnlock: The Official Debate

jenosborn · May 22, 2014 7:09 am

JNinSoCal wrote:
And, when Sherlock leaves he says, "Sorry about dinner."
Dinner is a metaphor for sex; so, Sherlock clearly rejects Irene's earlier offer.

@JninSoCal - so true about dinner.

And as folks have pointed out Mycroft's warning:
"Caring is not an advantage."

And as Sherlock points out to Irene:
"Love is a dangerous disadvantage." ---

The confusion of *who* is at disadvantage here, (Sherlock? Irene?
John?) and who has actually succumbed to the weakness of 'caring' is
part of what makes this such a core piece of the puzzle IMO.
Who 'succumbs' to caring?
-Irene, for carelessly revealing her heart in her password?
-Sherlock, for solving her puzzle so quickly, and for ultimately crazily saving Irene?
-John? For caring so much for Sherlock that Mycroft &co didn't trust
    him to be privy to the Sherlock hiatus?   For caring for/marrying an assassin?

And further core Series themes - just who is at a disadvantage, John
or Sherlock?   At various times, in some wonderful scenes,
you can make a case for both.   In ASIB, we are
introduced to this question, re: Sherlock and Irene, but
the underlying love and bond between John and Sherlock is what is
ultimately reflected through all of that narrative when all is done.
(Which is what I like best about ASIB, - the lovely symmetry of
the set pieces and writing of this episode, the interplay of
Irene/Sherlock to me underscores this reflection of a strong, sometimes
confusing, 'love' theme, actually onto our favorite duo, our
dear main characters. brilliant.)

"The chemistry of love is very simple, and very destructive."
Just look at Series 3,   Mary bears that out again in her
arguably 'true love' for John, but at the same time
as an obvious destructive force for Sherlock (literally)-
and for the Sherlock/John relationship.

But it prevails.   I love that!

@SusiGo, @tonnaree: such good points about the Moriarty angle- knowing
John is his weakness, and that burning the 'heart' out of Sherlock points
directly to 'John'.   Moriarty's voice re: John is what brings Sherlock
back to the living in HLV-   his weak spot, his heart.
@lil: really great insights.
And @LoveisaV: Yes he is human and he can bleed.   Love does hurt.

besleybean · May 22, 2014 3:59 pm

But nobody has ever doubted that Sherlock loves John and John loves Sherlock...they are just not in love.

tonnaree · May 22, 2014 5:08 pm

besleybean wrote:
But nobody has ever doubted that Sherlock loves John and John loves Sherlock...they are just not in love.

.........................or at least they won't admit it yet.

Harriet · May 22, 2014 5:19 pm

Well, one might

LoveIsAViciousMotivator · May 22, 2014 6:27 pm

besleybean wrote:
But nobody has ever doubted that Sherlock loves John and John loves Sherlock...they are just not in love.

Nope, there is no doubt Sherlock loves John and John is an important part of his life.

Just like Mrs. Hudson, Lestrade and now, Molly! =D

Mattlocked · May 22, 2014 7:01 pm

Now this is interesting.

http://jennaknowsash.tumblr.com/post/86451189118/the-funniest-anti-johnlock-post-i-read-today-was

SusiGo · May 22, 2014 7:04 pm

No comment.

tonnaree · May 22, 2014 7:32 pm

LoveIsAViciousMotivator wrote:
besleybean wrote:
But nobody has ever doubted that Sherlock loves John and John loves Sherlock...they are just not in love.
Nope, there is no doubt Sherlock loves John and John is an important part of his life.

Just like Mrs. Hudson, Lestrade and now, Molly! =D

But have no doubt, John is the most important of all. He didn't claw his way back from death for Molly, Lestrade or Mrs. Hudson.

LoveIsAViciousMotivator · May 22, 2014 7:57 pm

I bet he would.

Look at what happened to Mrs. Hudson in ASIB, he was eager to let that CIA agent suffer for leaving a scratch on her.

And if Lestrade and Molly were in danger just like John, no doubt Sherlock would.

SusiGo · May 22, 2014 8:02 pm

And yet there is a difference between John and the others. Definitely. Of course there is the mind palace scene. And he is the only person Sherlock ever confesses to love.

SolarSystem · May 22, 2014 8:13 pm

It's actually pretty ridiculous to assume that Lestrade, Molly, Hudders and John all mean one and the same thing to Sherlock. John clearly means so much more to him than anyone else ever could.

LoveIsAViciousMotivator · May 22, 2014 8:15 pm

Yes, I agree, they are each other different because they all help Sherlock in different ways. John is the loyal companion that supports Sherlock on his case. John is indebted to Sherlock as Sherlock is indebted to him. Mrs. Hudson is the mother figure and she is the only landlady who could put up with his attitudes and shooting up teh walls. Lestrade seems to be almost like a father figure, letting Sherlock on cases despite the danger in losing his job. Based on the drugs' bust on Sherlock's apartment in ASiP, I think Lestrade saved Sherlock from his addiction to drugs. And Molly, she is someone who Sherlock has wronged and treated poorly despite the fact that she only wanted to get close to him and be important to him. She becomes important when Sherlock realizes his mistake and is now indebted to her for helping him fake his death. Also, pretty important that in the scene where Sherlock is shot by Mary, it is Molly he turns to save his life.

lil · May 22, 2014 8:16 pm

Call me a cynic but love and in love...idk the difference..sex?

Isn't in love... in lust..something for hormone driven youths .

Something which has very little relevance to single people pushing forty in London ..the new Rome..where sex is like tea...cheap...easy...all brands and all places.

Last edited by lil (May 22, 2014 8:17 pm)

SolarSystem · May 22, 2014 8:21 pm

LoveIsAViciousMotivator wrote:
Also, pretty important that in the scene where Sherlock is shot by Mary, it is Molly he turns to save his life.

And still Sherlock flatlines. It takes John - or the thought of John being in danger - to bring Sherlock back from the dead. Because at that point he already was dead - and John brought him back.

SusiGo · May 22, 2014 8:22 pm

LoveIsAViciousMotivator wrote:
Yes, I agree, they are each other different because they all help Sherlock in different ways. John is the loyal companion that supports Sherlock on his case. John is indebted to Sherlock as Sherlock is indebted to him. Mrs. Hudson is the mother figure and she is the only landlady who could put up with his attitudes and shooting up teh walls. Lestrade seems to be almost like a father figure, letting Sherlock on cases despite the danger in losing his job. Based on the drugs' bust on Sherlock's apartment in ASiP, I think Lestrade saved Sherlock from his addiction to drugs. And Molly, she is someone who Sherlock has wronged and treated poorly despite the fact that she only wanted to get close to him and be important to him. She becomes important when Sherlock realizes his mistake and is now indebted to her for helping him fake his death. Also, pretty important that in the scene where Sherlock is shot by Mary, it is Molly he turns to save his life.

Well, this is a matter-of-fact way of judging John's and Sherlock's relationship. I just wonder about the music and the colours and the lighting and the acting in their scenes together … They could have done without that if what you say is the whole of their relationship.

SolarSystem · May 22, 2014 8:23 pm

Music? Colours? Lighting? Acting? What are you talking about...?!

lil · May 22, 2014 8:31 pm

Thing is if I had two friends..like John and Sherlock today...considering canon..something like 25 years on/off living together...who hadn't considered...getting together..after about idk 5 years most friends would say.......Why the hell not your perfect together?!...get a manual your fast learners fhs.!.

BBC have evolved the canon relationship...flatmates. ..colleague. .friend...best friend..best man..personwholovesyoumostintheworld...Where do they go from here..

SusiGo · May 22, 2014 8:54 pm

lil wrote:
BBC have evolved the canon relationship...flatmates. ..colleague. .friend...best friend..best man..personwholovesyoumostintheworld...Where do they go from here..

This.

tonnaree · May 22, 2014 8:58 pm

lil wrote:
Call me a cynic but love and in love...idk the difference..sex?

Isn't in love... in lust..something for hormone driven youths .

Something which has very little relevance to single people pushing forty in London ..the new Rome..where sex is like tea...cheap...easy...all brands and all places.

I would just like to say that I am way over 40 and I'm still Quite Pro-Lust.

LoveIsAViciousMotivator · May 22, 2014 9:28 pm

SolarSystem wrote:
And still Sherlock flatlines. It takes John - or the thought of John being in danger - to bring Sherlock back from the dead. Because at that point he already was dead - and John brought him back.

Actually, in the scene, we see Sherlock's brain is still functional. Sherlock wasn't dead as if he was, why could he still be in his mind palace? (of course, this is whole different discussion.) The thought of the fact that John may still be in danger kept him from succumbing to the darkness.

Wouldn't anyone do that for a close friend/brother?

@SusiGo: I see their relationship as I see it. I see two people who are close as brothers and saved each other. The show's telling of their relationship is brilliany with the music, colors, and lighting. I must admit that it may look romantic, but I love to see as two men who are both admired and fasicinated by each other. Remember John's face cut out and attached to the "ideal man"? I see that agreeing what I always saw about Sherlock: John is a good man and something Sherlock aspires to be. John is a model, but we realize by Sherlock's own pov and from his Best Man speech, Sherlock has seen John in an idealized way. Of course, the events in HLV show Sherlock that John might not be the pure man he once thought of him as.