BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Johnlock: The Official Debate

Tinks · May 19, 2014 12:33 pm

tonnaree wrote:
SusiGo wrote:
No, it is not. In the scene where he is trying to find out what Mary is she is wearing the dress from the restaurant. The scene in the bridal gown is from his mind palace while he is dying. It precedes the Redbeard scene.

As a matter of fact it occurs right after Mycroft tells Sherlock to find something in his mind palace to comfort him and calm him down. My interpretation is that he is looking for John and finds Mary standing in his way. Then he goes and finds Redbeard.

Also, backing up a little. BB mentioned Mark Gatiss being bullied about Johnlock. Was this from something specific? Just curious because I had not heard about anything of that nature.

I saw this scene as Mary symbolising his being in shock - the shock of what she'd done standing for the trauma his body was going through.
Also the proximity of her in her Wedding Dress to Redbeard, brought to mind Mycroft's earlier warning to Sherlock not to believe in Fairy Tales or he'd get hurt; Mycroft was right, literally.
The other thing I took from that scene, which hurt me actually, was that John wasn't the one who saved him - Mycroft was there to urge him to pull him back, Molly and Anderson gave advice; these were the people he turned to to save his life.
Ultimately it was John he came back for, but he came back to protect John, not because John was there in his mind palace, helping him.

nakahara · May 19, 2014 12:38 pm

And yet I loved the notion that it was an animal who ultimately helped Sherlock.
Unlike people, animals are able to offer an unconditional love.

SusiGo · May 19, 2014 12:40 pm

Another thing: I think this is because Sherlock calls up the knowledge he gained from other people. In this situation there is nothing that John taught him that might help. Mary and Anderson represent forensic knowledge, Mycroft clear, logical thinking under stress. Those are not the qualities Sherlock has learned from John but the qualities he needs to survive in this moment.
But in the very end it is not knowledge and logic that saves him but love (or whatever you may call his feelings for John). In the end it is raw emotion represented by Moriarty and indirectly John that makes him survive. He comes back for John and no one else. Which is quite a romantic thought, Mr Moffat.

Last edited by SusiGo (May 19, 2014 12:41 pm)

Tinks · May 19, 2014 12:54 pm

@nakahara - a lovely sentiment
@susi - I'd questioned the fact that John - a Doctor - wasn't there and Molly and Anderson were; I didn't like what it might mean (that he felt he wasn't important to John any more - especially since those scenes in TEH, where Anderson gave him the hug and not John - grrrr!! ). But yes - for forensic knowledge- I like that
And there's no question in my mind that it's John he came back for.
I don't know what you'd call what I have, really - a bad case of Friendshiplock, perhaps

Harriet · May 19, 2014 1:05 pm

But don't worry, Tinks, at least it's nothing serious

*ducks and runs*

Last edited by Harriet (May 19, 2014 1:06 pm)

Tinks · May 19, 2014 1:20 pm

LoveIsAViciousMotivator · May 19, 2014 2:12 pm

Harriet wrote:
I don't like being laughed at like that. It's not a good discussion style, if you ask me.

I was agreeing with you in that statement "if the world was ever that simple." I wasn't laughing at you. I was laughing, knowing that you can't sometimes get a good answer from the Sherlock writers some times.

Nothing was meant to be disrespectable at all. I'm sorry if you read offense. That wasn't my intent.

Last edited by LoveIsAViciousMotivator (May 19, 2014 2:14 pm)

JNinSoCal · May 19, 2014 3:08 pm

The theme of the entire series is: "What might we deduce about his heart?" Any heart-related plot or imagery is meaningful, if only metaphorically.

Being confronted by John's bride in his MP/dying consciousness, the simplest reading is that Mary (bride) broke Sherlock's heart. This is how I read the imagery the first time I saw the scene.

In the first S3 episode, TEH, Sherlock and Mycroft were playing Operation--Mycroft lost and the heart lit up and buzzed. This was a foreshadowing of HLV. Could this mean that Mycroft had some involvement with Mary killing Sherlock?

SusiGo · May 19, 2014 3:20 pm

Not sure about your last point (though it is quite interesting because we know nothing about the Mycroft/Mary relationship) but the heart imagery as such is quite interesting. We also have the heart over the fireplace in HoB.

LoveIsAViciousMotivator · May 19, 2014 3:26 pm

I do like the idea that Sherlock was going to find John to calm down, but then since John and Mary are now one, his mind goes to Mary depicted in the wedding dress and the memory of her shooting him, which means he has to go to someone else to calm him down and that is good old Redbeard. XD Cute dog.

Love the symbolistic represntation of Mary wearing the white dress as it evokes the trope of "The Woman In White."

Last edited by LoveIsAViciousMotivator (May 19, 2014 3:27 pm)

Harriet · May 19, 2014 4:08 pm

LoveIsAViciousMotivator wrote:
Harriet wrote:
I don't like being laughed at like that. It's not a good discussion style, if you ask me.
I was agreeing with you in that statement "if the world was ever that simple." I wasn't laughing at you. I was laughing, knowing that you can't sometimes get a good answer from the Sherlock writers some times.

Nothing was meant to be disrespectable at all. I'm sorry if you read offense. That wasn't my intent.

Fine, accepted It would be easier, though, if you made your emotional message content clearer next time, thanks.

lil · May 19, 2014 4:55 pm

JNinSoCal wrote:
The theme of the entire series is: "What might we deduce about his heart?" Any heart-related plot or imagery is meaningful, if only metaphorically.

Being confronted by John's bride in his MP/dying consciousness, the simplest reading is that Mary (bride) broke Sherlock's heart. This is how I read the imagery the first time I saw the scene.

In the first S3 episode, TEH, Sherlock and Mycroft were playing Operation--Mycroft lost and the heart lit up and buzzed. This was a foreshadowing of HLV. Could this mean that Mycroft had some involvement with Mary killing Sherlock?

Yes agree@the heart imagery..in Hound above the fireplace..after John had rather shown his hand in TGG ..and then the trashy graffiti ones in the drugs den and on the stair railings.
As for Mycroft and the telling game of operation..maybe a hint about Mycroft ..being mum again....and saving Sherlock later..in hlv.

@In the mind palace just before he see's Mary..Mycroft and Sherlock discuss Sherlocks "murder"...so he wouldn't look for his murderer or be asking why yet..he was looking to calm down and stay alive...so I think he was probably looking for John..who always sets him right..and who saves lives..but Mary seemed to be guarding/blocking the way. If it was that Mary/John were as one now...well John would have been there with Mary.

Sherlock like John in TGG has rather shown his hand in S03.

Last edited by lil (May 19, 2014 4:56 pm)

SusiGo · May 19, 2014 4:58 pm

Yes to all that.

tonnaree · May 19, 2014 5:02 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Yes to all that.

You're very agreeable today Susi.

SusiGo · May 19, 2014 5:08 pm

It depends.

jenosborn · May 19, 2014 7:52 pm

lil wrote:
JNinSoCal wrote:
The theme of the entire series is: "What might we deduce about his heart?" Any heart-related plot or imagery is meaningful, if only metaphorically.

Being confronted by John's bride in his MP/dying consciousness, the simplest reading is that Mary (bride) broke Sherlock's heart. This is how I read the imagery the first time I saw the scene.

In the first S3 episode, TEH, Sherlock and Mycroft were playing Operation--Mycroft lost and the heart lit up and buzzed. This was a foreshadowing of HLV. Could this mean that Mycroft had some involvement with Mary killing Sherlock?

Yes agree@the heart imagery..in Hound above the fireplace..after John had rather shown his hand in TGG ..and then the trashy graffiti ones in the drugs den and on the stair railings.
As for Mycroft and the telling game of operation..maybe a hint about Mycroft ..being mum again....and saving Sherlock later..in hlv.

@In the mind palace just before he see's Mary..Mycroft and Sherlock discuss Sherlocks "murder"...so he wouldn't look for his murderer or be asking why yet..he was looking to calm down and stay alive...so I think he was probably looking for John..who always sets him right..and who saves lives..but Mary seemed to be guarding/blocking the way. If it was that Mary/John were as one now...well John would have been there with Mary.

Sherlock like John in TGG has rather shown his hand in S03.

or the way that Irene shows her hand in ASIB- where Sherlock spells out for her his belief (at least up
until then) that "love is a dangerous disadvantage."

I agree that what has come before sets up some great heart imagery, and that a theme
of the entire series resonates with "What might we deduce about his heart?"

btw I do love the mind palace image of the assassin in the wedding gown, the "simple" image
of love juxtaposed with destruction. As Sherlock outright says:

"The chemistry of love is very simple, and very destructive."

It's such a rich image on the John/Sherlock core relationship level, and of the theme of love/friendship in general...

lil · May 20, 2014 11:52 am

Jenosborn..yes interesting that he says that about love right then..I wonder if perhaps TGG events with John/Moriarty were on his mind..leading him to realise John had became his disadvantage ..and a sort of ominous expectation of TRF. For Sherlock and Mycroft the writing must of been on the wall..that in order to beat Moriarty...he had to loose the disadvantage.
Hence the sad looks Molly refers to.
Interesting to think...that after all the years following Sherlock...since Carl Powers ..Moriarty only decides to come out and play..or take Sherlock on...so to speak....when he finally seems to have developed a weakness...John.

SusiGo · May 20, 2014 11:59 am

That is a clever thought, lil. Moriarty starts his game before John appears with the "suicides" but he increases his attacks the moment John comes into Sherlock's life. I think we can equate him with Sherlock's heart that has to be burnt out. And looking at HLV he succeeds. Because I am hundred percent sure that John would not have married Mary if Sherlock had not died.

tonnaree · May 20, 2014 12:06 pm

SusiGo wrote:
That is a clever thought, lil. Moriarty starts his game before John appears with the "suicides" but he increases his attacks the moment John comes into Sherlock's life. I think we can equate him with Sherlock's heart that has to be burnt out. And looking at HLV he succeeds. Because I am hundred percent sure that John would not have married Mary if Sherlock had not died.

Agreed. Mary was there when John was the most vulnerable he could be, alone, grieving. I think it's possible that he would've latched on to anyone who actively offered him comfort and relief. In my opinion it's not necessarily that Mary was special, just that she was there.

SusiGo · May 20, 2014 12:08 pm

Yes. After Jeanette he seemed to have stopped dating altogether. He did not mind going out with the therapist in HoB but it was case-related after all.