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May 12, 2014 9:48 pm  #41


Re: The things that were never said...

nakahara wrote:

All this is a sign to me that John cares about his friend and certainly isn´t angry at him.

I agree with you on this. John has forgiven Sherlock by this point, but I still think that he doesn't know half of what Sherlock went through in his two years ago. Without an onscreen scene about that, I can't be convinced otherwise. I feel such a rift between the two of them on the tarmac. Sherlock is doing his deflecting thing and trying to be funny and John, while seeming to expect something profound in regards to the thing Sherlock has always meant to say, isn't willing to push it.

John definitely cares for Sherlock. There is no doubt in my mind that he (platonically) loves that man with all his heart and that Sherlock loves him, too (platonically) in his own way. Which makes the vastness between them on the tarmac so much harder to watch.

Mary


John: That's clever. So you scratch their backs and...
Sherlock: Yes. And then disinfect myself.
 

May 13, 2014 5:55 am  #42


Re: The things that were never said...

I agree to an extent.
But we do at least get a kind or resolution, in that Sherlock does come back.


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May 13, 2014 6:03 am  #43


Re: The things that were never said...

maryagrawatson wrote:

nakahara wrote:

All this is a sign to me that John cares about his friend and certainly isn´t angry at him.

I agree with you on this. John has forgiven Sherlock by this point, but I still think that he doesn't know half of what Sherlock went through in his two years ago.

But that's certainly not John's fault alone, is it? I would assume that Sherlock himself doesn't want to talk about it, just as he said "You know my methods" when in TEH John asked him how he faked his death. Both of them aren't especially experts when it comes to expressing their emotions, their feelings. And I would think that Sherlock doesn't really want John to know every last detail of his two years away...

 


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

May 13, 2014 6:05 am  #44


Re: The things that were never said...

To protect him, yes.


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May 13, 2014 7:46 am  #45


Re: The things that were never said...

Sherlock probably doesn´t want to disturb John more by describing to him all the tortures he went through while chasing after Moriarty´s gang. If that spares John more pain, then it doesn´t matter to him that John will be inadvertently harsh to him sometimes - he can take it.

And considering their dialog on the tarmac... the vastness of feelings that is between them cannot be conveyed in words in a short time that has been left to them. It probably cannot be conveyed by words at all:

However much we describe and explain love,
When we fall in love we find ourselves short of our words.
Explanation by the tongue makes most things clear,
But love unexplained is clearer.
When pen hasted to write,
On reaching the subject of love it split in twain.
When the discourse touched on the matter of love,
Pen was broken and paper torn.
In explaining it reason gets stuck, as a mule in a mire;
Nothing but Love itself can explain love and lovers!
http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/wink.png

Last edited by nakahara (May 13, 2014 8:46 am)


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

May 13, 2014 12:03 pm  #46


Re: The things that were never said...

Very well said, Nakahara. Where's that poem from? 

We had a similar discussion about this scene before, somewhere in another thread. There are more people who thought the scene was really cold and unemotional. I really don't understand that. Not only did I find it touching, I thought it was the most emotional scene of the whole series and it actually made me weep. 

It's interesting that people can have such different reactions to a piece of art or entertainment. I would never have thought that people could interpret that scene so differently from me. Goes to show that you cannot always generalise your own experiences. I do think people who found that scene 'cold' have missed an awful lot, not being able to feel that, but everyone enjoys it in their own ways, I suppose. 

 

May 13, 2014 12:23 pm  #47


Re: The things that were never said...

silverblaze wrote:

Very well said, Nakahara. Where's that poem from? 

We had a similar discussion about this scene before, somewhere in another thread. There are more people who thought the scene was really cold and unemotional. I really don't understand that. Not only did I find it touching, I thought it was the most emotional scene of the whole series and it actually made me weep. 

It's interesting that people can have such different reactions to a piece of art or entertainment. I would never have thought that people could interpret that scene so differently from me. Goes to show that you cannot always generalise your own experiences. I do think people who found that scene 'cold' have missed an awful lot, not being able to feel that, but everyone enjoys it in their own ways, I suppose. 

The verses are taken from Jalal-ud-din Rumi, the famous persian poet of 13-th century, from his book Mathnawi-ye manawi (Verses with Double Meaning). This is a poetic tranlation, but you can find more literal translation together with notes and a persian original here:

http://www.dar-al-masnavi.org/n-I-0109.html

Considering the conflicting opinions of the scene, I think it´s the case of "Rashomon effect".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashomon_effect

Everybody has seen the same thing, but in every eye it looked a bit different. It happens frequently.
But i suppose, it´s a sign of a good entertainment, to raise questions, rather then to dumb you with too obvious solutions.


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

May 13, 2014 3:45 pm  #48


Re: The things that were never said...

Oh, thanks, the Persians have a thing for poetry, don't they? The few Iranians I've ever known all loved it. Pity it's so hard to translate without losing something of the original. 

 

May 13, 2014 4:57 pm  #49


Re: The things that were never said...

Yes, their poetry is one of the most beautiful in the world, especially that which conveys some mundane and spiritual meaning at the same time. Persians/Iranians are experts on that. And they have a huge number of classical poets like Rumi, Saadi, Nizami, Khayyam or Firdawsi. With such huge poetic tradition it´s no surprise they like poetry. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/grin.png


Every translation takes something from the original, I´m afraid. Still, without it we wouldn´t be able to read those nice pearls of culture, so thanks at least for that.


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

May 13, 2014 6:21 pm  #50


Re: The things that were never said...

True, I was translating Hamlet the other day (for fun, because I'm weird), and you always have to make a tradeoff between literal meaning, rythm, rhyme and understandability (if that's a word). English to Dutch is not the hardest thing in the world but still. 

The thing about the Rashomon effect is, it doesn't explain why. It's a given that witness reports can be very unreliable, the way they are tested doesn't really take into account how the brain works. You could also connect it to concepts like confirmation bias, social autopoiesis and social constructivism. Maybe there are also cultural differences that influence our perceptions in this case. As someone else said upthreads, Europeans are probably more used to subtlety than Americans. Generally, most Americans that I've met tended to be more expressive and dramatic than Europeans, so in my experience that seems to be true. Maybe they're more likely to miss subtle cues, they're just not so used to it. Doesn't explain everything though, there were I think also Europeans who missed it. 

 

May 14, 2014 12:02 am  #51


Re: The things that were never said...

silverblaze wrote:

True, I was translating Hamlet the other day (for fun, because I'm weird), and you always have to make a tradeoff between literal meaning, rythm, rhyme and understandability (if that's a word). English to Dutch is not the hardest thing in the world but still. . 

You are fabulous Silver!


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German   http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/grin.gif
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
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May 14, 2014 7:46 am  #52


Re: The things that were never said...

silverblaze wrote:

True, I was translating Hamlet the other day (for fun, because I'm weird), and you always have to make a tradeoff between literal meaning, rythm, rhyme and understandability (if that's a word). English to Dutch is not the hardest thing in the world but still. 

The thing about the Rashomon effect is, it doesn't explain why. It's a given that witness reports can be very unreliable, the way they are tested doesn't really take into account how the brain works. You could also connect it to concepts like confirmation bias, social autopoiesis and social constructivism. Maybe there are also cultural differences that influence our perceptions in this case. As someone else said upthreads, Europeans are probably more used to subtlety than Americans. Generally, most Americans that I've met tended to be more expressive and dramatic than Europeans, so in my experience that seems to be true. Maybe they're more likely to miss subtle cues, they're just not so used to it. Doesn't explain everything though, there were I think also Europeans who missed it. 

Oh, you are not weird at all! Translating things for yourself is a wonderful form of mental exercise and it teaches you many things about your own and foreign language. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/wink.png


Considering the Rashomon effect - they merely named this phenomenon to make people realise such thing exists. But you nailed it correctly when you mentioned that there are various reasons for why that phenomenon occurs.


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

May 14, 2014 9:47 pm  #53


Re: The things that were never said...

tonnaree wrote:

silverblaze wrote:

True, I was translating Hamlet the other day (for fun, because I'm weird), and you always have to make a tradeoff between literal meaning, rythm, rhyme and understandability (if that's a word). English to Dutch is not the hardest thing in the world but still. . 

You are fabulous Silver!

http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/embarrassed.png


Eh, thanks Tonnaree and Nakahara

Regarding the tarmac scene, quite often, when there's different interpretations, I tend to think: 'ok, interesting, different truths here, etc.' In this case, however, I'm more like NOOO, YOU'RE WRONG!!! 

Towards the topic of the thread: I like things unsaid. Let's keep them that way. 

 

May 15, 2014 5:32 am  #54


Re: The things that were never said...

This is so interesting.
Because I just rewatched His Last Vow last night.
At the tarmac scene(for the 1st time I virtually sobbed all the way through.
John is feeling raw emotion and does not know how to deal with it.
He knows what Sherlock is saying and he is crippled by his emotions...

Last edited by besleybean (May 15, 2014 5:33 am)


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May 15, 2014 6:17 am  #55


Re: The things that were never said...

.. and Sherlock sees it and stops opening up although he knows it´s their last moment together and instead makes a joke to give John a way out.. *sob*

 

May 15, 2014 11:24 am  #56


Re: The things that were never said...

And that joke somehow made everything worse. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/cry.png


Moff is good at that sort of thing. 

 

May 15, 2014 11:40 am  #57


Re: The things that were never said...

But at least Sherlock got to see John laugh one more time...................

*curls up in fetal position and sobs*


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German   http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/grin.gif
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
http://media-cache-ec3.pinimg.com/736x/aa/2b/35/aa2b352725f4c944599a3ea17cbfe44e.jpg    https://31.media.tumblr.com/bb0f8896a79d19602eeaea0254ff5ccd/tumblr_n5ztxjGDB61stgn3no1_500.jpg
 
 

May 15, 2014 4:33 pm  #58


Re: The things that were never said...

Yeah, thank goodness he's back amd maybe John won't belt him this time!


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May 17, 2014 9:56 pm  #59


Re: The things that were never said...

It must have been quite a task, ending series three. Last series ended with basically the cliffhanger of the century, now it's your turn. Wuhah, stress! Though Moffat probably likes that sort of thing. He pulled it off really well. 

 

May 17, 2014 9:58 pm  #60


Re: The things that were never said...

Yes and I feel we have so many more character/plot possibilities than we did at the end of either of the previous series.


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