BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Sherlock’s Sexuality: An In-Depth Contemplation and Study

nakahara · May 13, 2014 12:00 pm

But you must admit, there was a bit of a strange chemistry between Sherlock and Moriarty.... there´s no smoke without the fire.

ancientsgate · May 13, 2014 12:12 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Ben Stephenson, the BBC drama director, has stated more than once that they wish to get more good scripts including gay characters whose gayness is just a simple fact and not the centre of the show. Therefore I do not believe that it is BBC policy to suppress homosexual elements in their dramas. And we should not forget that a large part, the majority, I would say, of Sherlock viewers is female.

I doubt that Sherlock's audience is predominantly female. The *fandom* is predominantly female, but that doesn't mean there are so few males actually watching the show. My son (who is 40 and married) loves Sherlock, as he does Dr. Who. But he would never, ever, be part of this or any other fandom.

In the US, all TV programming is driven by advertising dollars, and their target audience for nighttime programming is always the male 18 to 35 group. No idea about PBS, but PBS also runs ads, so who knows.

I wish TV shows could get good scripts, period. The writing quality for US TV isn't great.

SolarSystem · May 13, 2014 12:39 pm

Harriet wrote:
No, not at all. That kiss simply doesn't deal with sexuality or homosexuality.

Ah, okay, wasn't sure there for a second... and I agree. I think that nobody who knows the show and watches that kiss would go "Oh, they're doing homosexuality now!".

Harriet · May 13, 2014 12:44 pm

nakahara wrote:
But you must admit, there was a bit of a strange chemistry between Sherlock and Moriarty.... there´s no smoke without the fire.

But one-sided.

tonnaree · May 13, 2014 12:46 pm

ancientsgate wrote:
Lue4028 wrote:
bothers me that they felt like the homosexual one had to be "censored" in a way.. but I guess there's more than one possible excuse for why they did that. Like what susigo said. or maybe the makers aren't homophobic, but worried about homophobic viewers. Could also be story itself required a cut off like that.
Not only was the kiss incomplete, but also only the fantasy of that silly fan at Anderson's support group. As though someone would have to be a socially backward, frustrated, confused nut job to even think of such a thing. Ugh. I didn't like that scene on first (2nd, 3rd, etc) view but don't like it even more now.

But we also know that the Sherloly kiss was Anderson's twisted fantasy.

nakahara · May 13, 2014 12:46 pm

Harriet wrote:
nakahara wrote:
But you must admit, there was a bit of a strange chemistry between Sherlock and Moriarty.... there´s no smoke without the fire.
But one-sided.

I don´t argue with that - I just wanted to point out, that´s where some fans got the idea of Sherlock and Jim being something more than archenemies.

ancientsgate · May 13, 2014 10:04 pm

SolarSystem wrote:
.... I think that nobody who knows the show and watches that kiss would go "Oh, they're doing homosexuality now!"

IMO that wasn't about homosexuality, you're right; it was about making fun of the fans. And I didn't like it. I consider myself to be someone with a pretty good sense of humor, but I don't like feeling belittled. Sorry, I know I'm beating a dead horse, but it upset me, and I haven't forgotten how I felt when I first saw it. I always FF over that whole scene when I get to that part, can't stand to watch it again. Ugh. And again, because it was that one fan's fantasy, it had nothing whatsoever with "Sherlock's sexuality".

ancientsgate · May 13, 2014 10:05 pm

Harriet wrote:
nakahara wrote:
But you must admit, there was a bit of a strange chemistry between Sherlock and Moriarty.... there´s no smoke without the fire.
But one-sided.

I didn't think it was anything sexual. All I saw was a deep, deep envy on Moriarty's part. Envy turned to hatred. Not pretty.

ancientsgate · May 13, 2014 10:07 pm

tonnaree wrote:
But we also know that the Sherloly kiss was Anderson's twisted fantasy.

Right. More poking fun at the fans, fan fic authors and readers. That kiss was at least completed, though, and I admit that it was nice to see beautiful Sherlock lay a beautiful kiss on someone beautiful, lol, but it was just more of the writers having a giggle at our expense, IMO.

ancientsgate · May 13, 2014 10:10 pm

nakahara wrote:
Harriet wrote:
nakahara wrote:
But you must admit, there was a bit of a strange chemistry between Sherlock and Moriarty.... there´s no smoke without the fire.
But one-sided.
I don´t argue with that - I just wanted to point out, that´s where some fans got the idea of Sherlock and Jim being something more than archenemies.

Oh, I doubt very much that the idea of a Sherlock/Moriarty thing originated with that scene. There's always been Sherlock-Moriarty slash out there, for those who care to read it. The two of them are quite interesting in their own rights, but together, well, they could create a nuclear blast of emotion-- the stuff that fan fic excels at.

JNinSoCal · May 13, 2014 10:13 pm

Every scene between Moriarty and Sherlock revealed Moriarty's attempt to seduce Sherlock. He tried to entice Sherlock to join him on the Dark Side; but, it's not much of a stretch of the imagination to assume that Jim's DS included a pretty explicit erotic component.

Moriarty's Final Problem may be the epic confrontation between James (evil/dark) and John (good/light) over Sherlock's heart. "What might we deduce about his heart?"

tonnaree · May 14, 2014 12:06 am

JNinSoCal wrote:
Every scene between Moriarty and Sherlock revealed Moriarty's attempt to seduce Sherlock. He tried to entice Sherlock to join him on the Dark Side; but, it's not much of a stretch of the imagination to assume that Jim's DS included a pretty explicit erotic component.

Moriarty's Final Problem may be the epic confrontation between James (evil/dark) and John (good/light) over Sherlock's heart. "What might we deduce about his heart?"

Moriarty sure was fluent in sexual innuendo...............just saying.

Lue4028 · May 14, 2014 1:37 am

That's interesting that you say that. why do you think it's a confrontation between John and Moriarty? Curious because I have similar thoughts, but I didn't get them specifically from reichenbach.

Last edited by Lue4028 (May 14, 2014 8:19 am)

JNinSoCal · May 14, 2014 2:47 pm

If we recognize Sherlock's trajectory in this series as a classic Hero Journey, then his confrontation with Moriarty will be the final problem to be overcome before our hero can find True Love.

Season 3 presented a long list of romantic obstacles to be overcome---Mary's assasin past, John's baby, Moriarty's return, Sherlock's exposure to prosecution, and (most importantly) Sherlock's and John's inability to express their love for one another. Season 4 should resolve most of these, leaving the resolution of Sherlock's final problem with Moriarty to be dealt with in season 5.

This confrontation would resolve the heroic arc of Sherlock's hero Journey as he rejects Moriarty's evil seduction and chooses John's love.
The writers' have been using mythical, fairy tale (Hero Journey) imagery--dragons, damsels in distress, every fairy tale needs a good villian, the apple--Moriarty has identified himself as the villian and has set up the final problem.

SusiGo · May 14, 2014 2:50 pm

Very good analysis (although I had hoped Moriarty to be finished).

LoveIsAViciousMotivator · May 14, 2014 3:08 pm

Am I the only one who thought The Great Game was totally about Sherlock and Moriarty wanting each other? LOL Especially with Sherlock's smiles and compliments to Moriarty and he going like: Let me hear your voice.

LOL

SusiGo · May 14, 2014 3:12 pm

I think for Sherlock this is part of the game. His excitement happens on a purely intellectual level.

JNinSoCal · May 14, 2014 3:39 pm

LoveIsAViciousMotivator wrote:
Am I the only one who thought The Great Game was totally about Sherlock and Moriarty wanting each other? LOL Especially with Sherlock's smiles and compliments to Moriarty and he going like: Let me hear your voice.

LOL

In the courtroom scene, when Sherlock was describing Moriarty as a "spidah" in the 'centah" of his web pulling strings to make people "dahnse" (this is how my American ears heard it...), Moriarty took it as a somewhat flirtatious compliment not as a damning condemnation.

He thrives on Sherlock's attention and will look for ways to revive their Great Game.

LoveIsAViciousMotivator · May 14, 2014 3:46 pm

SusiGo wrote:
I think for Sherlock this is part of the game. His excitement happens on a purely intellectual level.

It may be a game, but Sherlock seemed quite taken by Moriarty's attention as well as being able to show his genius. Moriarty was flirting with him and Sherlock was asking for Moriarty to show himself. He wants to met the person who has interested him.

"I can't be the only person who gets bored."

To see that someone shares his tedious boredom with the ordinary world and enjoys a good murder, Sherlock can't help but try to connect with this person.

JNinSoCal · May 14, 2014 4:13 pm

I adore Moriarty and his seductive dance with Sherlock.

Here are 3 Sinnerman (Nina Simone) videos that reveal different aspects of Jim's (Mr. Sex!) seductive ways:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDIrSOhe-5Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fs-8gK8Cn4Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fs-8gK8Cn4Q

This, just for fun---because this thread focuses on Sherlock's sexuality...Sexy, Naughty, Bitchy
(shirts, not skirts)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJ18qXAaXXc