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April 30, 2014 6:23 pm  #1


My thoughts on Mary and the scene in CAM's office

I have been seeing people say that Mary is a trained assassin and asking why she didn't kill Magnussen?

Okay! 

First off, Mary isn't a trained assassin.

Sherlock tells us this:

Sherlock: By your skill set, you are -- or were -- an intelligence agent. Your accent is clearly English but I suspect you are not. You're on the run from something; you used your skills to disappear;

And this is what Magnussen give us:

Magnussen: All those wet jobs for the CIA. Ooh. She's gone a bit freelance now.

Now, intelligence agencies deal with gathering/analyzing intelligence, espionage, and assassinations. 

So yeah, I bet she has carried out assassinations, but that's not her only job. 

Let's look at the scene in CAM's office!

Since Mary is or was an intelligence agent, her main goal isn't to kill, but to gain information. That's why she was in the office. She was there to see if she could get the information that CAM was blackmailing her on. I bet she used Janine's trust to gain access to his office or records to his scehedule so she could sneak inside the penthouse and find out whatever she could...

But Magnussen probably either knew she was coming or his schedule had changed without her noticing. 

Despite the fact her goal was to find her files, she decided to take the opportunity to force the information out of Magnussen since he was now there. 

She couldn't kill him because she needed to know what and where he kept the files on her. 

Then... Sherlock came into the room. 

Mary just couldn't catch a break, could she? XDDDDDD

Makes me wonder what she was running from, though? Maybe she has information that alot of organizations want? Maybe she thought it was best to disappear and gain new identity while also satisfying her need to get away from that kind of life? Maybe when she went freelance, she got herself into something so deep that she wanted to get away from it? 



 

Last edited by LoveIsAViciousMotivator (April 30, 2014 6:24 pm)

 

May 1, 2014 4:21 pm  #2


Re: My thoughts on Mary and the scene in CAM's office

Yes Marys skill set obviously extends beyond the " wet work " and as an intelligence agent she likely recieved training in many and varied other areas.
Linguist perhaps being an example along with complex breaking and entering along with setting up and maintaining undercover IDs.

Why she didn't / hadn't killed Magnusson is interesting,  and I don't think we can be really sure it was to collect the evidence he had against her.
As Magnusson said...he doesn't need to proove it he just needs to print it -
So even if Mary did intend to collect / interrogate Magnusson as to where he got his info..and who he told...to stop him..she ultimately would have had/intended to kill him anyway.

My thoughts are Magnusson got his info from Moriarty...explaining how Magnusson knew about Redbeard....that Moriarty used Magnusson to control the media in TRF...and Moriarty knew about Mary because he hired her.

Seems likely Mary got close to John and was more lieing low...hiding in plain sight..than on the run...until she could be sure Sherlock (the person dismantling Moriartys network)..and Moriarty ( the contract she didn't honour) were really dead.

Seems a large coincidence Mary / Sherlock ended up in the same place at the same time...Mary seems to have been living with the Magnusson threat for a long time...since November bonfire thing...so maybe Magnussons demands escalated to something unacceptable...or perhaps when Mary discovered Sherlock was looking into Magnusson , Mary decided to insure Magnusson hadn't given her away to Sherlock or John and cut her connection to Magnusson/Moriarty before Sherlock discovered it.

NB it seemed to me that the skip code could also be read as a message to Mary..time to choose..James (Moriarty) or John...in retrospect SH would have realised that too.

Last edited by lil (May 1, 2014 4:30 pm)

 

May 1, 2014 4:42 pm  #3


Re: My thoughts on Mary and the scene in CAM's office

lil wrote:

Why she didn't / hadn't killed Magnusson is interesting, and I don't think we can be really sure it was to collect the evidence he had against her.
As Magnusson said...he doesn't need to proove it he just needs to print it -
So even if Mary did intend to collect / interrogate Magnusson as to where he got his info..and who he told...to stop him..she ultimately would have had/intended to kill him anyway.

Yes, she would have killed him, but right then and there, her intent wasn't... at least, not until she gained what she wanted. Mary doesn't know about the truth that it is in his head. If she did know that, he would have been dead already and Sherlock would be met with the sight of CAM's dead body. 

Magnussen's line wouldn't make any difference to Mary as he could have printed it already, but he never did so that begs the question: What he was blackmail her on? And with that blackmail, what did he want Mary to do for him? From what we seen at the office, he never made any move on her. His sights just switched to Sherlock, John, and then his threat to destroy Mycroft. 

I don't know about  the connection between Mary and Moriarty. That is just speculation I have had been seeing and hearing. But I don't know unless Series 4 gives us a hint in that direction. For right now, I really don't see any evidence to it, Not saying it could be true, I'm just saying that I haven't seen any facts that could go with that theory yet. 
 

Last edited by LoveIsAViciousMotivator (May 1, 2014 4:45 pm)

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May 1, 2014 4:43 pm  #4


Re: My thoughts on Mary and the scene in CAM's office

Interesting idea about the James and John thing. And I also do not believe that John and Mary met by chance but that she targeted him for some reason or other. It might well be that she fell in love with him in spite of herself (provided she truly loves him). 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

May 1, 2014 4:52 pm  #5


Re: My thoughts on Mary and the scene in CAM's office

SusiGo wrote:

Interesting idea about the James and John thing. And I also do not believe that John and Mary met by chance but that she targeted him for some reason or other. It might well be that she fell in love with him in spite of herself (provided she truly loves him). 

If she was targeting John, why would she wait five years? 

If I remember correctly, but did they say she took her identity five years ago? So if she was working for Moriarty at that time or was targeting John, why wait that long? It looked like in those five years, she was really trying to escape such a life, date and met David, then broke with him in friendly terms and soon met John.


 

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May 1, 2014 6:03 pm  #6


Re: My thoughts on Mary and the scene in CAM's office

It seems Mary got close to John six ish months b4 SH returned..
If Mary getting close to John isn't a coincidence I can only think of two reasons..
Either someone ordered/hired her to...
Or SHE needed to know if Moriarty / Sherlock were definitely dead for herself.
(If Mary was hiding from Moriarty...discovering he was really dead would be vital to her...she had no reason for interest in John years ago..now she does.)

Either someone knew SH was alive..or the dismantling of Moriartys web made her suspect.

I don't think it's significant that she used the Morstan ID for so long..it hadn't been blown so why not....

Magnusson wasn't interested in Mary per se..he wanted Mycroft....giving out the info on Mary wld loose Magnusson the only pressure point he had that was close..

Mycroft wasn't a pressure point for Sherlock...John was.
Magnussons intent was to use Marys info on Sherlock..Sherlock wld compromise Mycroft to protect John..

Assuming the general theory..she wanted to be sure Magnussons files or computer data on her was deleted b4 she killed him...then why?
Seems unlikely another person would use it to go after Mycroft via her..and considering the other people Magnusson power played with Mary seems a very small insignificant fish...so yes this is the interesting point.

Did Mary suspect the police wld find them while investigating the murder..doubtful Magnusson doesn't seem stupid.
Did Mary suspect Magnusson had an accomplice still alive..maybe..
Did Mary just want to be sure Magnusson hadn't already used it/told Sherlock..

If the latter..then killing Magnusson became moot..Sherlock had discovered her secret...hence leaving Magnusson alive wasn't a problem..
Silencing Sherlock however......

Last edited by lil (May 1, 2014 6:25 pm)

 

May 2, 2014 7:26 am  #7


Re: My thoughts on Mary and the scene in CAM's office

I think she didn't kill Magnussen because John really would have been the most likely suspect in that case. No matter how closely he is known to work with Sherlock, what the police would have seen upon arriving at the crime scene were two people out cold downstairs and two people dead (or nearly dead in Sherlock's case) upstairs with John as the only man left standing. Wouldn't have looked very good for him...

And yes, she also wanted and needed to find out how much Magnussen really knew and where he had stored that information. I guess she actually did work for the CIA at first, and then somehow got muddled up in some extra curricular activity so to speak, which is why she had to vanish and change her identity.
I don't know if she met John by chance or not, but my guess is that in her case, when she took on Mary Morstan's identity, she really wanted to start a new and normal life and leave her past behind, which is why she reacted so strongly to Magnussen. I think her love for John is genuine.

About her not being a trained assassin, my guess is she rather was (maybe among other things, yes). "Wet jobs" are assassinations in my book and if she carried out several of them she must have had some training and the agency's trust to carry them out well.
Also in the confrontation with John she says something about people like Magnussen having to be taken out (don't remember the exact wording) and that is why there are people like her. So, yeah, I think assassinations were definitely part of her job description.

I very much hope the writers will come up with a proper back story to uncover in the next series and won't sneak out of having to dismantle her past somehow.


------------------------------------------------------------------

"When you walk with Sherlock Holmes, you see the battlefield" M.H.

"My brother has the brain of scientist or a philosopher, and yet he elects to be a detective...what might we deduce about his heart?" M.H.

"Home is now behind you, the world is ahead."
 
 

May 2, 2014 9:22 am  #8


Re: My thoughts on Mary and the scene in CAM's office

the_dancing_woman wrote:

I very much hope the writers will come up with a proper back story to uncover in the next series and won't sneak out of having to dismantle her past somehow.

I really hope so, too. So far we've heard next to nothing about her past from Mary herself, and the things we've heard from Sherlock and CAM leave a lot of things open to interpretation. Which on the one hand is pretty neat because it gives us lots of stuff to speculate about, but on the other hand it's also a bit frustrating.

 

Last edited by SolarSystem (May 2, 2014 9:22 am)


___________________________________________________
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"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

May 2, 2014 5:20 pm  #9


Re: My thoughts on Mary and the scene in CAM's office

The idea that John would be blamed/charged had Mary shot Magnusson doesn't fly at all. The most rudimentary investigation would show he hadn't.
No ballistics ( bullets not matching ) no GSR ( gun shot residue ) and no motive .
Even had John been searched and his gun found, ( unlikely he was even carrying it , he didn't to a drugs den so why to an office )very easy to see it hadn't been fired..and John had dialed 999 immediately.
Even had John walked in on two dead people..he would be exonerated very quickly...and Marys entry/exit point discovered ( open window i believe )
unless all the police are very very incompetent and stupid.
As it was I don't see that John was ever a suspect for shooting Sherlock and attacking Magnusson. ( exact same circumstances )
Unlike Magnusson , police actually need proof. ( evidence )
Being a suspect or looking bad is utterly irrelevant.

Marys motive for killing Magnusson died the moment Sherlock walked in.
There was no risk of Magnusson telling John Marys secrets and giving away his only hold/pressure point and thus destroying his path to Mycroft.
The problem now was Sherlock telling John.

Last edited by lil (May 2, 2014 9:49 pm)

 

May 9, 2014 7:13 pm  #10


Re: My thoughts on Mary and the scene in CAM's office

lil wrote:

The idea that John would be blamed/charged had Mary shot Magnusson doesn't fly at all. The most rudimentary investigation would show he hadn't.
No ballistics ( bullets not matching ) no GSR ( gun shot residue ) and no motive .
Even had John been searched and his gun found, ( unlikely he was even carrying it , he didn't to a drugs den so why to an office )very easy to see it hadn't been fired..and John had dialed 999 immediately.
Even had John walked in on two dead people..he would be exonerated very quickly...and Marys entry/exit point discovered ( open window i believe )
unless all the police are very very incompetent and stupid.
As it was I don't see that John was ever a suspect for shooting Sherlock and attacking Magnusson. ( exact same circumstances )
Unlike Magnusson , police actually need proof. ( evidence )
Being a suspect or looking bad is utterly irrelevant.

Marys motive for killing Magnusson died the moment Sherlock walked in.
There was no risk of Magnusson telling John Marys secrets and giving away his only hold/pressure point and thus destroying his path to Mycroft.
The problem now was Sherlock telling John.

Yep. Makes complete sense. 

And about those "wet jobs"-- and "freelance", and all those people who want her dead, and her desperation to run away from her past, and more tellingly, hide that past from John; who was a soldier in Afghanistan, who works with Sherlock, and helped to find out what happened to one of Mycroft's MI6 agents-- 

If Mary had been *only* an intelligence agent, working on the side of the angels-- or even just her government-- she had to know that John not only would have understood, but would proably tried to use his connections (Mycroft, Lestrade) to keep her safe-- or he simply would have kept her secret. I don't think there would have been a need for forgiveness, really-- i think John would have understood--extenuating circumstances. And someone used to "working on the side of the angels" would not have shot Sherlock. Not just to "save her relationship", by being able to keep lying to John. 

Her behavior is what makes me think her past is much more sinister than "Intelligence agent", or ex-CIA, just wanting to get out of the racket. 

She has to have done something she knows John would never forgive. Knowing John, that's killing innocent people.

 

May 9, 2014 8:51 pm  #11


Re: My thoughts on Mary and the scene in CAM's office

@lil: I do agree with the excuse that John would be a suspect. That was a flimsy excuse, which is the fault of the person writing the scene. That scene has alot of problems. 


@Raven:Mary reminds me of alot of agent characters that I have watched over the years. You know the type that follows the orders of their government. As an intelligence agent, she probably had to exploit information from other people or governments to complete the mission that she was given. In the world of espionage, it is a cold and ruthless world. You are either kill or be killed. 

The idea of Mary killing innocent people? I'm not saying she didn't, but maybe they were killed indirectly by her? She gave intel and the government took action or if she was in the field, she probably had to make difficult choices, which resulted in deaths.

Maybe that is why she went freelance because she got tired of being a government lapdog. When you are an agent, you can't question orders or bad things happen. 

Remember what she says: People like Magnussen deserve to be shot that is why there are people like me.

I bet when she went freelance, she probably went after people she believed deserved death, which is wrong, but a certain soldier and consulting detective has done the same thing so... yeah. But despite that, in the world she lived in for awhile, she made a lot of enemies from governments and criminal organizations, which is why she decided to change her identity and live in the ordinary world. 

Magnussen talks about people she has hurt. Of course, she has hurt people. Foreign governments, criminal and terrorist organizations, and including people who died in the results of her actions, innocent or guilty, would love a chance to kill the agent that stop their plans or destroy their lives.

What I'm trying to say is that we can't look upon Mary as a black or white character nor her past as well. I really hope we get more context of her past. 

 

Last edited by LoveIsAViciousMotivator (May 9, 2014 9:01 pm)

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May 9, 2014 10:00 pm  #12


Re: My thoughts on Mary and the scene in CAM's office

@LoveisA..I don't really know where the..John would be a suspect idea originates just read it on here a few.

At Mary killing innocents......well she does and did.
She shot Sherlock because he was a witness to her attempted murder of Magnusson.  Her automatic response is to kill innocent bystanders.
Had a security guard...Janine..or a random cleaner walked in she would have left two dead bodies on the floor .

This is where Mary crosses the line .
Killing an innocent person to protect her secret and her selfish love for John...is never going to be acceptable.

Sometimes agents have to do bad things in a greater good way yes....the only way we seperate the good/bad guys now is by how they treat the innocent bystanders.
Collateral damage is the new dirty word..and thats the point the writers make.
Sherlock protects....Mary kills.

As for a tragic past so lets be sympathetic with Mary .....a bad thing happened to me years ago....now I can kill people that P me off and anyone that gets in my way..... doesn't really work.

 

May 9, 2014 10:55 pm  #13


Re: My thoughts on Mary and the scene in CAM's office

 I still think Mary wasn't attempting to murder Magnussen... not yet anyway.

Mary shot Sherlock. That's bad. Yes. I'm not excusing her actions. Despite the fact that I hate how that scene was done (to me, if they really wanted to find a way for Mary to shot Sherlock, they could have done a better job without the flimsy excuse of John being suspected of being an accomplice or something), I think the writers' were trying to write a scene that puts her in a difficult position which comes out looking like Mary shot Sherlock for no reason (bad writing there). But if you look at the scene, Mary warns him not to take a step forward and if you look closely, he does. She shot him when he took a step forward. Mary has keen reflexes. (Reminds me of  what Major Shloto says in Sign of Three. LOL Foreshadowing?)

Her automatic response? That statement doesn't make sense in context. So Mary shoots Sherlock so that means she kills innocent bystanders? I'm sorry. That doesn't make sense to me.

Ummm...not remotely what I meant.

Mary is running away from something. Her trying to protect her identity is crucial as well as protecting John. Remember that Mary witnessed the scene where he realized that sherlock lied to him for two years, putting him through emotional trauma? Do you think after all that Mary would think twice before telling her secret if that is his reaction? Who could blame her?

People think it was selfish of her to lie to John, but Sherlock lied to him too. Mary wanted to protect John from knowing her past because he would not react well. She didn't want to lose him.

Mary could have killed Janine and the security guard, but she didn't. If we want to portray Mary as a person who will kill anyone, then she would have killed them without hesitation. But she didn't. 

Mary is portrayed as ruthless and cold in this episode, but it also shows that she doesn't kill people needlessly. 



 

Last edited by LoveIsAViciousMotivator (May 9, 2014 11:09 pm)

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May 10, 2014 12:21 am  #14


Re: My thoughts on Mary and the scene in CAM's office

I don't think it is mentioned on the episode that John would be suspect..only here.

Mary shot Sherlock because he was a witness.

Sherlock said in 221b confrontation...Mary had a witness her training means she should of killed me..but she didn't..and thats why she saved his life.
Paraphrase from mem there but very similar. Training / automaticallyuresponse similar things for intel agents.

Mary kills witnesses - usually innocent bystanders that stumble into the wrong place at wrong time...like Sherlock did.
Had a random cleaner stumbled across the scene...and saw her ..gave ID.. yup yup two dead people.

She didn't need to kill the others because they didn't see her.

Yes Sherlock lied to John - to save his and others lives..and later..I would think MI6 would be annoyed if he blew his "dead" cover.
Mycroft did confirm in the smoking scene...MI6 wanted to send him back to Serbia. Sounds like a national secrets thing.
Mary lied to John...to con him into thinking he was something / someone she wasn't...and maybe even at first for other dubious purposes.
I do think she genuinely fell for John tho.
but i guess that old chestnut....is so already done and OT..

 

May 10, 2014 1:46 am  #15


Re: My thoughts on Mary and the scene in CAM's office

Actually, it is mentioned in the show. 

Sherlock: Of course, you couldn't shoot Magnussen. On the night both of us broke into the building, your own husband would become a suspect


That's right. She didn't need to kill them because they didn't see her. Sherlock did, but like Sherlock said, sentiment got the better of her. She shot him in a place that would keep him silent yet also keep him alive. And technically, he was still alive (if you want to debate this, think about the Mind Palace scene. If he really did die, why could we as the audience see him there? If he was dead, no brain power to think because he would be gone already. The fact we see him in his Mind Palace was we were seeing Sherlock fighting to stay alive, not coming back to life. So actually he never died.))

Also, like I pointed out, the only reason she shot Sherlock was because of her reflexes. He stepped forward when she told him not to. I wonder if Sherlock just stayed put, would she have still shot him or not? Hmmm.

Sherlock lied  to save John, Lestrade, and Mrs. Hudson's lives, but TEH retconned that with the fact that Mycroft stopped the sniper who was pointing at John. So John was safe then, Sherlock could have told him the truth. Let's not forget that horrible subway scene where Sherlock forced John to forgive him by lying. Ugh. 

Mary was running away from her past. She wanted to start a normal life and we see that she was doing that. She has friends including Janine (despite the fact she was using her), and she also had an ex-boyfriend. It does seem she was trying. Of course, we see that her instincts as an agent are not that easy to erase. 

But she is showing that she really wants to live a normal life. That is difficult to do for someone like her who has been in a world of distrust, deception, and death. Like sherlock, Mary is damaged. Despite her actions in HLV, I do believe Mary wants to redeem herself in both Sherlock and John's eyes. 

 

 

Last edited by LoveIsAViciousMotivator (May 10, 2014 1:50 am)

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May 10, 2014 7:55 am  #16


Re: My thoughts on Mary and the scene in CAM's office

Yes I think she does want a life with John..yet she never explains or apologises to Sherlock or John at all. They chose not to show that.
They chose the.. nonsensical suspect John excuse..
They chose the...given up shooting people years ago..yet heres 2 impossible shots ..
They chose the...she saved my life..when they deliberately showed us in slow motion.. her kill him...he died.
my opinion on that is people didn't get the last finale...death..unexplained apparant miraculous resurrection ...so here's another one in this finale..lol.
They chose the..she called the ambulance..when we see Magnusson using the phone behind her back....and timing London traffic in minutes? Impossible!
They chose for Sherlock to offer her help..he asked to help her..she shot him anyway.

So we are deliberately left I think with...a Sherlockian puzzle.
Impossible/Possible...See/Observe...
And strange unlikely coincidences.
Whether Mary meant to kill Sherlock ...only she knows..it's circular logic.
The sinner or saint Q again.James or John.

She knows Sherlocks on Magnussons case and after his vaults.
Did she intend to beat Sherlock to them..maybe thats why she was there?
Eitherway how can she continue staying in hiding...living with the famous SH@JW...she can't.
Because even killing Magnusson...hasn't solved her problem.
Unknown people still want to kill her...and unknown people know where she is.

or its all just a tv show....no clueing for looks here....except they know..thats exactly what people do.

 

May 10, 2014 1:38 pm  #17


Re: My thoughts on Mary and the scene in CAM's office

Mary looks so defeated in the 221B scene like she was waiting for her execution and the Christmas scene with John and her. Just look at her face, it is like she was expecting John to just leave right then and there. I wished she was able to explain herself more in the 221B scene. That was the perfect moment there, but the writers seem more focused on Sherlock and John there. 

I think Sherlock was telling the truth about Mary. This is a guy who can use his Mind Palace to keep him from dying, so I don't think it is actually too hard to believe that in those moments he deduced what Mary was doing or maybe when he escaped the hospital he took time to analyze what had happened and figured it out on his own. Sherlock did went to work in getting Mary's attention and confront her with John. 

Now, I think sherlock really wanted Mary and John to reconcil so they can get back to the business at hand: Magnussen.

(Yeah! XD)

Last edited by LoveIsAViciousMotivator (May 10, 2014 1:48 pm)

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