BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Johnlock: The Official Debate

SolarSystem · May 2, 2014 7:27 am

I would agree. I know next to nothing about Canon (yes, sue me...), but all of John's attempts to have a constant relationship with a woman in S1/2 were nothing more than that: attempts. Probably also because Sherlock somehow sabotaged those relationships - or at least wasn't very supportive of them. But I would think that if it had been really that important to John (or if it had been real love), he would have been able to make at least one of those relationships work long-term.

I could imagine that Mary wasn't even love at first sight (and I am speculating here of course) , maybe she just was someone who gave him some comfort and helped him to forget his grief and pain a bit. And then maybe this turned into a relationship after a while.

Last edited by SolarSystem (May 2, 2014 7:28 am)

SusiGo · May 2, 2014 7:33 am

And I was really surprised when I checked on John's blog the other day and realised that Greg's visit with Sherlock's things and the DVD happens only one month before the return. You can see that although he is in a relationship and maybe even thinks about proposing he is in no way over Sherlock's death. He cannot even watch the DVD without a considerable quantity of liquor to support him.

SolarSystem · May 2, 2014 7:48 am

Really, only one month...? Apart from the liquor we also see a still very worried Greg, don't we?
I would have thought that at that point, because of the liquor and the way Greg acts, that John was still in the middle of his mourning process - and not in a relationship.
But in my opinion John never would have been completely over Sherlock's death, not after two, five or ten years.

SusiGo · May 2, 2014 7:57 am

The entry for Many Happy Returns is dated October 5th, the one for The Empty Hearse November 7th.

And what is even more interesting and what I saw only now - in the blog John tells us this:

Turns out he'd faked his death because Moriarty had threatened those close to him. Including me. He'd gone into hiding, happy to leave me and everyone else thinking he was dead. He'd done it to save us but he hadn't trusted us enough to tell us what was really going on. Not sure I'll ever truly forgive him for that but as the saying goes, life goes on.

SolarSystem · May 2, 2014 8:14 am

"Not sure I'll ever truly forgive him for that but as the saying goes, life goes on."

That's probably what he's thinking about Mary as well, after he finds out about her past.
It seems he made that blog entry shortly after Sherlock's return, and I would think that it really took John a while to come to terms with his emotions. So even if he writes that he's not sure whether or not he'll be able to fully forgive Sherlock... I'm sure by the end of S3 he has. He shaved off his moustache because of him, for crying out loud...!

SusiGo · May 2, 2014 8:17 am

Yes, I agree with you. But is it not interesting how they hide such important information in the blog? I mean, lots of people just watch the show and do not search on the Internet for clues. I always wanted to know if John knows that Sherlock also did it for him. And we never get the answer in the show.
And another thing - shall we assume that Sherlock told him the truth at one point, including Moriarty shooting himself? This would explain how he knows about that at the end of HLV.

SolarSystem · May 2, 2014 8:24 am

I have to admit that I'm actually not a big fan of this blog, exactly because of what you've mentioned: You sometimes get information they didn't include in the show, and I have to say I'd prefer it if they did indeed show it on the show - for the whole audience to see, not just for the fans. On the one hand it's a bit like "Oh yes, a goody for the fans!", on the other hand I'm asking myself "And what about the rest of the audience, the 'normal' audience?"
In this case, they could have included this right at the end of TEH, in the real reunion scene between Sherlock and John... but Sherlock just says "You know my methods" and that's it. I would have loved to have seen John's reaction when Sherlock tells him that he did it for him...

SusiGo · May 2, 2014 8:31 am

Yes, I am in two minds about the blog as well. It is nice to have this meta whatever-you-call-it, but to give important information like this only via the blog … well. But then I do not really know about the connection between the blog and the creators of the series and how far they are involved in this.

On the other hand one might argue that the "average viewer" may be content with what they get in the show and that the blog is directed at freaks like us who want to know more.

SolarSystem · May 2, 2014 8:41 am

"Freaks like us"...? Only speak for yourself, lady.

Of course in this special case one could also argue that by Sherlock not telling John why he did it (or by not showing us that he tells him) and then John forgiving him... that forgiveness is even more precious. Because it's probably easier to forgive a thing like this if you're being told that the person in question did it for you. Without that knowledge it might be more difficult to forgive... nevertheless John forgives.

SusiGo · May 2, 2014 8:47 am

Oopsie, of course you are excluded.

Yes, you are right. And it would be quite typical of Sherlock (at least at this point of his development) not to disclose his emotional reasons for doing this.

SolarSystem · May 2, 2014 8:59 am

Thank you very much.

That's true. Let's just hope that his emotional reasons for killing CAM are absolutely clear to John...

SusiGo · May 2, 2014 9:00 am

I hope so, too.

tonnaree · May 2, 2014 12:06 pm

Great conversation ladies! Many points to ponder.

Susi, thanks for pointing out that big difference between how John and Mary got together in the books and how it was treated in the show. Add this to the list of things to counter with when people cry Johlock can't happen because it's not canon.
No, I can't imagine Series 1 and 2 John up and leaving Baker St. for any of his girlfriends. And when we see how Sherlock effects his relationship with Mary I also can't imagine it being as successful if Sherlock had been there from the begining?

"I would have thought that at that point, because of the liquor and the way Greg acts, that John was still in the middle of his mourning process - and not in a relationship.
But in my opinion John never would have been completely over Sherlock's death, not after two, five or ten years."

Me too Solar, A month before the return? John was still deeply grieving, you could see it in his whole body. To me this makes the whole "growing a mustache proposing to Mary one last visit to Baker St" events more as John trying to push himself past his grief rather than a sign that he has truely "moved on."

Oh, and Solar, you say Freak like it's a bad thing!

.

Last edited by tonnaree (May 2, 2014 12:08 pm)

SolarSystem · May 2, 2014 12:22 pm

No, tonnaree, of course we all are the most lovable freaks here!

ancientsgate · May 2, 2014 1:40 pm

SusiGo wrote:
.....John falls in love with Mary only after he has presumably lost Sherlock. Can anyone really imagine him doing this in series 1 or 2? Giving up their life in Baker Street for marriage? .....Of course Moftiss opted for higher drama while Doyle very conveniently got Mary (and enigmatically) out of the way. Still, I like to think that John only was able to start a serious relationship with a woman after having lost Sherlock.

Not to mention returning to that boring medical practice of his. *yawn.....*

ancientsgate · May 2, 2014 1:44 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Yes, I am in two minds about the blog as well. It is nice to have this meta whatever-you-call-it, but to give important information like this only via the blog … well. But then I do not really know about the connection between the blog and the creators of the series and how far they are involved in this.

On the other hand one might argue that the "average viewer" may be content with what they get in the show and that the blog is directed at freaks like us who want to know more.

What blog are you guys talking about? And who writes it? Remember me? Living here in the back of my cave? I didn't know there was a blog. If it's something written by some fan, I wouldn't care enough about it to read it, though.

SusiGo · May 2, 2014 2:17 pm

No, it is not a fan thing but quite official and worth checking out:

http://www.johnwatsonblog.co.uk

And here is Sherlock's page:

http://www.thescienceofdeduction.co.uk

ancientsgate · May 2, 2014 11:25 pm

SusiGo wrote:
No, it is not a fan thing but quite official and worth checking out:
http://www.johnwatsonblog.co.uk
And here is Sherlock's page:
http://www.thescienceofdeduction.co.uk

It's not a fan thing? Then who is writing it, maintaining it? Offical, like BBC-official? 'Cause it doesn't say BBC on either of those sites, not that I saw anyway.

Zatoichi · May 3, 2014 5:38 am

It is maintained by the BBC and written by Joseph Lidster. If you go to "More Information" you are directed to this page:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b018ttws/features/disclaimer

Last edited by Zatoichi (May 3, 2014 5:44 am)

LoveIsAViciousMotivator · May 12, 2014 7:43 pm

Oh boy! LOL I know my opinions around here aren' t in the majority and since most of the people in the Sherlock fandom, including this website, seems to be Johnlockers, I always seem hesitant to express such views.

Okay! Here I go! XD

I wasn't a major Johnlocker in S1 and S2, but that didn't mean I could see potential between these two and actually quite like it. Still, the one thing that ran in my mind was that Sherlock needed to learn how to treat people better and form healthier relationships before he ever went to relationships. Despite that and how I like to ship him with people, I always saw Sherlock as the guy who can't keep romantic relationships (even if he did, it would be fleeting and won't last long).

My potential for shipping Sherlock and John together dwindled to zero during Series 3 (nothing to do with Mary, though). I know my opinions on that series isn't majority either, but sherlock still seemed like the same guy in S1 and S2. Except TSoT, even though, I hated the fact that sherlock still drugs John and made him missed a whole day. Not funny and not cool.

The idea of shipping Sherlock and John on the show would be wrong in my opinion, especially due to the subway scene and sherlock's drugging. I mean if someone I was in an intimate relationship was drugging me without my consent and emotionally manipulated me to do things or say things they want to hear from their own benefit, I would want to get out of the relationship fast. If Sherlock and John ever pursued a relationship, John would have to grow a spine and tell Sherlock to stop drugging him and establish boundaries. If he lets Sherlock do this to him, John would not last long.

That is what is keeping me from shipping these two together now. Even if I did want to indulge myself in it, it would be protrayed as tragic and destructive.

Last edited by LoveIsAViciousMotivator (May 12, 2014 8:03 pm)