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April 29, 2014 9:36 pm  #61


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

Excellent, nakahara. Sums it up very well. 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

April 29, 2014 9:48 pm  #62


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

@nakahara:

Whoa! Lots to response to here so bear with me! XD

As someone who didn't enjoy Series 3, I have to say I have gotten tired of people saying that those who didn't like it are just expecting too much from a show. I don't think that is okay to say that because the only expectations I ever had for Series 3 was the continuing development of its characters and compelling cases. As a fan of the show and someone who didn't get into until the last few montsh of hiatus between Series 2 and 3, I felt like I got cheated. Cheated is a strong word but that's how I felt after watching all three episodes of Series 3. Heck, when TEH aired, lots of people were going like: What the...? Is this really happening? Is this a dream?

TEH has funny moments! I know! I laughed at a few scenes myself, but the comedic moments got old really fast for me. I was waiting for the moment where everything got serious because TRF was a dark episode. John, for two years, had to deal with guilt and the image of his best friend dying right in front of his eyes. You would think they would at least treat that seriously, but no, Sherlock just tells John he couldn't tell him because he didn't trust John to keep a secret. Oh, that's great, blaming John. Way to go, Sherlock! 

To me, it just felt like the whole epsiode was telling John that he is wrong to be angry with Sherlock and to forgive him now or he will be a very bad person! 

The subway scene just proves Sherlock learned nothing from what happened to TRF. After all, John, Lestrade, and Mrs. Hudson were threatened with death. I would have thought Sherlock will realize how he takes them all for granted and how much he actually cares that he can't label himself a sociopath no more or say he doesn't have a heart. Moriarty just proved to him that he does and with that realization, he work to treat those people including Molly better. I thought that was the point.

The fact of the matter is John's forgiveness should come out when he was ready to give it. The fact that Sherlock manipulates and forces this declaration proves that he is still selfish and undermines his selfless act in TRF. 

Now, I'm not saying that Sherlock all of a sudden be a nice guy. All I wanted was for Sherlock to show that the events of TRF taught him something about his ways. That is all. And with the explanation that we got, it throws all that out the window.

 

 

April 29, 2014 9:51 pm  #63


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

But we see in TSoT how much he has learned and how selfless he can be. And that what he did to John still preys on his mind.
(My 18-year-old daughter watched all three episodes with me and she was totally enthusiastic. Especially about HLV). 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
     Thread Starter
 

April 29, 2014 10:00 pm  #64


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

Of course, you are entitled to like what you want to and for your own reasons. That thing above was just my opinion about the matter. I understand what you want to say and why you were disappointed.  In my eyes, Sherlock of S3 changed quite a bit from the person he was in the beginning of the series. He seemed softer and more considerate to me. I didn´t mind that he was still quite reckless and that he fooled John with his tricks from time to time, because I like that irresponsible side of Sherlock (relishing it in many ACD adaptations) and the comedy part of the series and I probably wouldn´t enjoy it if it developed into a heavy-minded drama. But that´s just my personal taste.


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

April 30, 2014 4:51 am  #65


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

nakahara wrote:

Personally, I see nothing wrong with TEH. Everytime I rewatch it, it strucks me as a witty, humorous, cheeky, nicely filmed episode with some heartfelt homages to both fandom and the original material. And even those who think that this episode was somewhat weaker than episodes of previous two seasons must admit that TEH was better entertainment than 99% of the TV shows produced today.

That last bit is definitely true and yes, it is a nice enough episode.
Nevertheless it has its weaknesses (for me). For example, it is the only episode so far that always makes me fast-forward a particular sequence because it's just plain boring to me - and that's probably the worst thing that can happen, even worse than that scene in the tube where Sherlock is laughing at John (that will always feel wrong to me). It's the sequence with Sherlock and Mary on the motorcycle, I think it's far too long, I have difficulties reading the on-screen text and I'm always glad when they finally arrive at the bonfire.
But yes, I would always watch TEH again, because, like I already said, there are lots of things in it which work quite well.
 


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

April 30, 2014 5:32 am  #66


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

Please don't fast forward through it...that's a shame.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

April 30, 2014 5:40 am  #67


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

I don't see why I should sit through a scene that bores the death out of me.


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

April 30, 2014 5:47 am  #68


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

Is this the bike scene or another?
Not that it matters for me, I just find it difficult to conceive of anything about Sherlock to be boring...
I'm just puzzled.
I don't know how many times you've seen the episode, but I thik you have to watch it though properly to give it a fair chance.
But obviously we all have our own likes and dislikes...
Yet I would always watch through even my least favourite episode....


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

April 30, 2014 5:56 am  #69


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

Thanks for the advice, but I've watched the episode at least half a dozen times and yes, I'm talking about the scene on the motorbike (as I already mentioned in my first post...). I know the scene, I know how scenes like this one can work, and this one just doesn't work for me.


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

April 30, 2014 6:03 am  #70


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

I reall am sorry about this Solar. I'm afraid this is me, OCD on the spectrum or whatever...just tell me to shut up, if you want!
But that scene in particular, wow?  Aren't you obsessing over what this is telling us about Mary and Sherlock and their relationship and dying to see Sherlock rescue John?!


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

April 30, 2014 6:07 am  #71


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

I love it when Sherlock rescues John and that's when I stop the fastforwarding - as soon as Sherlock gets off the bike. But as long as Sherlock and Mary are on the bike - nope. Doesn't work for me.


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

April 30, 2014 6:23 am  #72


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

Maybe you're just not as interested in Mary as I am, fair enough...


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

April 30, 2014 6:43 am  #73


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

What I'm not interested in are boring motorcycle rides through the streets of London...


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

April 30, 2014 8:39 am  #74


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

Btw, since we are in this thread in order to compare S1/2 and S3, I just had to think of the only other sequence in the show (at least I think it's the only other one) that tries to be similiarly fast-paced and with a bit of action: When Sherlock and John are following that cab through London in ASiP. And surprise, surprise: I really love it, it works perfectly for me.
They use quite similar techniques, in both scenes they have them halt for a moment, they have them talk to each other, they use on-screen texts... but for some reason only the scene in ASiP works for me. Which is interesting, because after all in TEH John's life is in danger, so there should be far more suspense... but somehow there isn't.
 

Last edited by SolarSystem (April 30, 2014 8:39 am)


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

April 30, 2014 8:45 am  #75


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

I see what you mean. Could it be that it has something to do with Sherlock and John being together in this scene which is so important in founding their friendship? The carelessness, the danger, the adrenaline and - in hindsight - Sherlock "curing" John's limp? It is about friendship, it is about the two most important characters doing something mad and exhilarating together. And it leads to the beautiful hallway scene which John has never forgotten and remembers in TEH.
 
In TEH we have Sherlock and Mary together. And I would not compare their chemistry with the one between Sherlock and John. I have no idea why I am not so very frightened for John. 
Just one attempt at explanation. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
     Thread Starter
 

April 30, 2014 8:54 am  #76


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

Scene in ASiP had a sense of unpredictability and exilaration to it: as an audience, we didn´t know what will be the outcome of it and we were surprised that John suddenly lost his psychosomatic limp during the chase, or that Sherlock has a map of London in his head. It was surprising and enjoyable.

Scene in TEH is really just a standard chase scene used in many, many movies before, so I´m not surprised it wasn´t that exciting. And because it was obvious that the authors would never kill or gravely injure John, even if they stuck him into the bonfire, it was quite predictable. That´s probably why ASiP wins in this instance.


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

April 30, 2014 8:58 am  #77


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

Susi, that might play a role in it, but I think what's more important for me is that I've probably seen far too many car/bike/whatever chases/races in movies over the years... I think I've seen it all before, and in TEH I don't have the feeling that I'm seeing something new, something unique. I could see a bike scene like this in tons of movies, if I wanted to, and what I love about "Sherlock" is that very often I get to see things that make me go "Wow, never seen that before". They very often succeed in giving me something 'new' - and of course I know that almost everything has been done before, so nothing is ever new. But very often it feels like something new in "Sherlock".
So, in ASiP it works for me because of Sherlock and John who are in the middle of their bonding process, but also because I have the feeling that yes, this scene is done so brilliantly that it feels quite unique to me.

nakahara, I agree.
 

Last edited by SolarSystem (April 30, 2014 8:59 am)


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

April 30, 2014 9:00 am  #78


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

Maybe it was just a first glimpse of Mary as enjoying a good chase as well?


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

April 30, 2014 9:07 am  #79


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

I'm not sure I understand what you mean, mrshouse...?


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

April 30, 2014 9:19 am  #80


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

Ok, I'll try to explain. Hope it sounds a bit logical
In ASiP the chase was -as mentioned before- about the characters bonding, showing they like a bit of excitement together, they are not alone. A bit of preperation for their future working together, if that makes sense.
Now we know Mary is a bit of an excitement junkie herself, or at least used to be. So maybe this scene was to show that she was not what she is supposed to be. I won't repeat those here, we have done so in various threads. And it might be about bonding with Sherlock, which doesn't really work for me, as I have to agree with Susi about their chemistry, and I'm a sucker for good chemistry.
The thing against my theory is, that in this scene Mary worries about John, which might limit the excitement somewhat...


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

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