BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » The comprehensive Johnlock guide (Johnlockers only)

SusiGo · April 20, 2014 8:29 pm

Yes, I can imagine that scene very well.

SolarSystem · April 20, 2014 8:35 pm

These are dreams that fanfics are made of...

SherlocklivesinOH · April 21, 2014 12:32 am

And don't forget the "Decoding the Subtext" blog.

ancientsgate · April 21, 2014 1:04 am

SusiGo wrote:
I was not sure where to put this so I posted it here.
John likes to wear checkered shirts. So do Sherlock's father and David, Mary's ex-boyfriend. Sherlock, however, never wears them, let alone shirts as casual as this one. So what do we make of this? I think there must be an idea behind this because the style is so totally unlike Sherlock. (And in TEH we see John in turn wearing a coat and his scarf tied the way Sherlock does).

There's a lot of playing with/teasing the fans that goes on about Johnlock in every single episode, and even more so in S3 than before. This could be TPTB's idea of teasing humor-- let's let the fans think they're getting dressed out of the same closet now.

OTOH, men wear striped and checked shirts a lot, so it's almost crazy to think Sherlock never will, especially a conservative one like this, covered by a dark suit coat. While John sometimes looks like an escaped Finnish lumberjack, with the shirts and jumpers (sweaters) he wears, I don't think Sherlock ever will go that far.

And there's always the getting dressed out of the same closet thing....

Lue4028 · April 21, 2014 1:06 am

Oh, that's clever! I didn't think about that. The same closet idea requires a second step of deduction. : D But are they living together at that point? Maybe John left his shirt over there.
I was wondering what was the point of Sherlock being good at dancing in the sign of three. It seemed a little random, unless it's canon. He's already been established as artistic (with his violin). why did they spend so much time on that, ie, hudson interupted him while he was dancing, he pirouettes for Janine, and then not have him dance at the end or even play his piece? DX Speaking of genius needs an audience... When S left the wedding, I felt like there was unresolved conflict but I couldn't tell what it was.
It would have made more sense if they established him as good at dancing to achieve something else later on. Maybe the intent was to make it feasible for Sherlock to give John lessons, which would make a lot of sense, but John's line about the lessons was so marginal I didn't even notice it. Maybe we were supposed to empathize with him when everyone else was dancing and he wasn't. But the significance of that, I'm not sure. Maybe it's the whole "alone is all I have thing" but that seems so last season.
Now that I think about it, you know what would have fixed it? If John and Sherlock did dance together at the wedding. That would have made everything add up, tie in and make sense- what screenwriting strives to do. But instead we got "We cant all dance together. There are limitations"
I wonder if these limitations are those of the screenwriters. Maybe it would be too risky for them to write that. Ambiguity is a line they have to walk.

Last edited by Lue4028 (April 21, 2014 1:36 am)

tonnaree · April 21, 2014 1:42 am

ancientsgate wrote:
SusiGo wrote:
I was not sure where to put this so I posted it here.
John likes to wear checkered shirts. So do Sherlock's father and David, Mary's ex-boyfriend. Sherlock, however, never wears them, let alone shirts as casual as this one. So what do we make of this? I think there must be an idea behind this because the style is so totally unlike Sherlock. (And in TEH we see John in turn wearing a coat and his scarf tied the way Sherlock does).

There's a lot of playing with/teasing the fans that goes on about Johnlock in every single episode, and even more so in S3 than before. This could be TPTB's idea of teasing humor-- let's let the fans think they're getting dressed out of the same closet now.

OTOH, men wear striped and checked shirts a lot, so it's almost crazy to think Sherlock never will, especially a conservative one like this, covered by a dark suit coat. While John sometimes looks like an escaped Finnish lumberjack, with the shirts and jumpers (sweaters) he wears, I don't think Sherlock ever will go that far.

And there's always the getting dressed out of the same closet thing....

Well, we all know John's closet is big enough for both of them................

Last edited by tonnaree (April 21, 2014 1:42 am)

besleybean · April 21, 2014 7:26 am

Tee Hee.

SolarSystem · April 21, 2014 8:55 am

Lue4028 wrote:
why did they spend so much time on that, ie, hudson interupted him while he was dancing, he pirouettes for Janine, and then not have him dance at the end or even play his piece

Well, he did play his piece for John and Mary. It was the one the two of them were dancing to.
But as for making so much fuss about Sherlock and dancing: To me all of this seemed (and of course I have no idea whether or not this was intended by the writers) as if Sherlock was preparing for the wedding in the way bride and groom would prepare. And when on the dance floor he finally mentions that he gave John dancing lessons in 221B at one point... well, what happened in my mind was the real wedding dance. We didn't see it, but I imagined it.

Last edited by SolarSystem (April 21, 2014 8:56 am)

besleybean · April 21, 2014 9:42 am

Imagination: both a blessing and a curse.

SolarSystem · April 21, 2014 9:44 am

In this case (and most other cases) definitely a blessing.

SusiGo · April 21, 2014 9:48 am

I think the dancing also serves as a symbol of Sherlock's emotional side, something we learn about more than ever before in this series. It is one thing he likes to do that is not connected to his work, something he does purely for pleasure and therefore has kept hidden quite well. Just like his feelings.

Schmiezi · April 21, 2014 9:52 am

SusiGo wrote:
I think the dancing also serves as a symbol of Sherlock's emotional side, something we learn about more than ever before in this series. It is one thing he likes to do that is not connected to his work, something he does purely for pleasure and therefore has kept hidden quite well. Just like his feelings.

I wonder why he shared that with Janine. Was he already planing to use her to get to CAM?

besleybean · April 21, 2014 9:54 am

Interesting question...maybe we'll find out next series!

Last edited by besleybean (April 21, 2014 10:23 am)

SusiGo · April 21, 2014 9:55 am

Not sure about that. We do not know when Lady Smallwood seeks his help. To me it seemed that he really wanted to get everything right about the wedding, inclucing the best man dancing with the chief bridesmaid. It was a sort of rehearsal for a dance that never happened afterwards because he made people dance to "1963" to cover his blunder about the pregnancy.

ancientsgate · April 21, 2014 12:54 pm

Lue4028 wrote:
Oh, that's clever! I didn't think about that. The same closet idea requires a second step of deduction. : D But are they living together at that point? Maybe John left his shirt over there.

Well, if the upstairs bedroom isn't being used, why would John continue to take his clean clothes up there to hang them up, why would he get dressed up there? He wouldn't. Hence, the shared closet thing. And yes, I'm well known for my delusional fantasy moments, and this is just one more of them-- I told you, I wear rose-colored slash glasses, and I cannot get them off, even if I try. Not that I try very often.

ancientsgate · April 21, 2014 12:59 pm

Lue4028 wrote:
....Now that I think about it, you know what would have fixed it? If John and Sherlock did dance together at the wedding. That would have made everything add up, tie in and make sense- what screenwriting strives to do. But instead we got "We cant all dance together. There are limitations"
I wonder if these limitations are those of the screenwriters. Maybe it would be too risky for them to write that. Ambiguity is a line they have to walk.

Considering what they DID give us in ASofT, the "love" word, the hug, everything Sherlock said in his best man speech and later on before the dancing, yeah, then I think actually dancing together would have been so OTT as to be completely unbelievable. After all, say you went to a wedding. Say you saw and heard what we saw and heard between those two. Now imagine them actually dancing together in the darkened reception hall, while Mary stands there with a simpering smile on her face, all alone on the sidelines. You know, I love a good fantasy as much as the next delusional fan, but I think the writers were right this time-- there really ARE limits.

ancientsgate · April 21, 2014 1:04 pm

SusiGo wrote:
I think the dancing also serves as a symbol of Sherlock's emotional side, something we learn about more than ever before in this series. It is one thing he likes to do that is not connected to his work, something he does purely for pleasure and therefore has kept hidden quite well. Just like his feelings.

Plus he was making a Herculean effort to be sociable in the weeks leading up to the wedding, and what's more social than dancing. It did seem out of character for him, and probably something he wouldn't have bothered with for anyone else on earth besides his John. Wedding dancing is right up there as part of wedding planning, after all. He figured he'd be expected to dance, so, again, in an effort to seem socialbe.... he danced. Something he liked anyway but probably didn't give himself a chance to do very often.

Lue4028 · April 21, 2014 3:09 pm

I don't think it seemed out of character. I think it shows another side of his intelligence, but the violin already did that for me.
If you go in with "heteronormative" glasses on, the limits don't seem quite so necessary. Can't two friends dance together platonically? *innocent question* Moffat spends a lot of time breaking down our preconceptions about friendship and love and trying to get us to stop drawing lines and limits. I'm just expanding on his philosophy. XD
In my fantasy Mary would tell them to dance together~ and Mary should dance with Sherlock too~

Last edited by Lue4028 (April 21, 2014 3:13 pm)

tonnaree · April 21, 2014 4:23 pm

Lue4028 wrote:
I don't think it seemed out of character. I think it shows another side of his intelligence, but the violin already did that for me.
If you go in with "heteronormative" glasses on, the limits don't seem quite so necessary. Can't two friends dance together platonically? *innocent question* Moffat spends a lot of time breaking down our preconceptions about friendship and love and trying to get us to stop drawing lines and limits. I'm just expanding on his philosophy. XD
In my fantasy Mary would tell them to dance together~ and Mary should dance with Sherlock too~

Here's a perfect example of that double standard thing. Woman can dance together with wild abandon and it's considered just something girls do. I've done it with friends from high school into college and adulthood. It's so common it's almost a cliche.

PS. I'd like to note that Ben has no problem dancing with his male friends. *giggle*

Last edited by tonnaree (April 21, 2014 4:26 pm)

KeepersPrice · April 22, 2014 1:16 am

Lue4028 wrote:
I don't think it seemed out of character. I think it shows another side of his intelligence, but the violin already did that for me.
If you go in with "heteronormative" glasses on, the limits don't seem quite so necessary. Can't two friends dance together platonically? *innocent question* Moffat spends a lot of time breaking down our preconceptions about friendship and love and trying to get us to stop drawing lines and limits. I'm just expanding on his philosophy. XD
In my fantasy Mary would tell them to dance together~ and Mary should dance with Sherlock too~

Since the Mofftiss tends to give nods all over the place to the many creative reincarnations of Sherlock Holmes (and not just ACD canon), I see the dancing business in TSoT as a nod to RDJ and Jude Law dancing together at a huge soiree in "A Game of Shadows". What's fun about the scene in that movie is no one at the party even gives them a second glance - like it's all perfectly acceptable. Also, I could be wrong but somewhere in there I think Holmes says, "Who taught you to dance?" and Watson says, "You did."
So if TSoT was a nod to "Game of Shadows" then the writers were correct to leave out any real dancing between Sherlock and John because its already been done. And it would have ruined that lonely bittersweet feeling we get because we know Sherlock wanted to dance; but since everyone was already taken, it wasn't meant to be.
God, when I see his expression when he realizes he's alone on the dance floor and that John is gone and Janine is occupied, it reminds me of the look on his face when Seb Wilkes in TBB says how everyone at Uni hated him. It breaks my heart.