*imagines John and Sherlock getting in trouble with the TSA* 

Last edited by Lue4028 (April 19, 2014 4:33 am)

SusiGo wrote:

The thing is - if Sherlock and John were a man and a woman and they behaved like they do and did the things they do nobody would doubt that they love each other. And the imagery - admiring the night sky, looking like THAT at each other, John being jealous, purple lights flickering over their faces and bodies, sad farewell at the airfield …
Honestly, I do not know any straight male friendship like this one. 

And that really is the thing... we wouldn't be having all these discussions if one of them were a woman, because then everything would be soooooo obvious....! But because it's two men we're talking about, it just can't be. 
And exactly, it has been said before, this friendship is not like any male friendship I have seen so far.
 

Right, Solar, these discussions would be obsolete then if the show were about a man and a woman.

Last edited by Harriet (April 19, 2014 5:13 pm)

gently69 wrote:

But both sides are just opinions, aren't they? You simply can't state it as a fact. Neither "only" friendship nor love.

Of course, and I didn't state my opinion as a fact (or did I...?).
I just really think that double standards seem to get applied here. Yes, John dates women and eventually marries Mary, and that's why it seems to be unthinkable for a lot of people that he might also have an interest in Sherlock (or men in general) - and admitted, maybe he even doesn't know himself or doesn't want to admit it to himself, for whatever reasons.
But if Sherlock were a woman, then of course everyone would realize that there is more than just friendship.

Yes, in terms of "The X-Files"... I guess nobody would deny that there is a romantic tension between them from episode 1. But you see, I think that the tension between John and Sherlock is even more evident than the tension between Mulder and Scully.
 

We say "if Sherlock were a woman" as though it were a comparable analogy but I'm hesitant to say it would be. What if Sherlock and Watson's genders are important parts of their identity, behavior, and relationship? What if the nature of their relationship would change if you changed their genders? What if they wouldn't be Sherlock and John anymore? "bro" is a crucial part of bromance, so to speak..
I'm stereotyping a little but, masculity could be to blame for what makes John somewhat reserved and Sherlock somewhat blatant and callous. I know John doesn't like to be emotional because he identifies with being a typical british man. 
Alot of their actions, a lot of their thoughts are masculine. The actions that are noticibly, sometimes surprisingly, not masculine are also colored by their gender and therefore more salient. Is it safe to say the double standard is wrong when maybe there needs to be two standards because of the contrasting nature of male-male and male-female relationships? If we consider masculinity could play a role in their personality and how their behaviors influence others, i don't think it's a safe thought experiment to go switching genders..

Last edited by Lue4028 (April 19, 2014 6:44 pm)

SolarSystem wrote:

[And that really is the thing... we wouldn't be having all these discussions if one of them were a woman, because then everything would be soooooo obvious....! But because it's two men we're talking about, it just can't be. 

Well, it could be, if anyone dared to go there. I do understand TPTB's issue with what would happen with all the fan and casual viewer attention suddenly being drawn to Johnlock if they decided to actually show us some real Johnlock, when TPTB would rather our attention be on the casework and Sherlock's quirky personality.

But jeeze, they cast the most gorgeous, charismatic actor they could find to play Sherlock, and then they found the perfect John to stand beside him and bounce off him and tell him off occasionally, not to mention to kill a guy who threaten him, on the very first day they meet! And they write lines for them to say that simply scream about how they're great friends, but so-much-more, and then John said he LOVES Sherlock, FCOL! And that gorgeous, charismatic Sherlock actor is an expert at eye sechs, although where he learned that acting ability, I'll never know.... maybe it comes natural to him or something.

On and on it goes.

I think TPTB want their cake and to eat it too. Everything in TSoT (for instance) was put in that episode on purpose. They want "something more" between their two main characters, but boy oh boy, sometimes they trip over the line between a deep friendship, well into bromance territory, and somtimes they teeter around over by Johnlock. I almost wish TPTB would make up their minds and stop playing with us. OTOH, the playing *is* fun and gives us lots to talk about.

heh  We do love to go round and round about this, don't we.
 

Last edited by ancientsgate (April 19, 2014 8:05 pm)

gently69 wrote:

Ok, I have to admit that you are right. If Sherlock was a woman there were no doubts and there is a difference in the intensity compared to the relation between Mulder and Scully ... right from the start.

Is there more tension, or are we just more intrigued by it because they're both male? 

If they were male-female, I'd be *screaming* at my TV, because I am so sick-to-death-up-to-here with American TV and how there is almost always male-female ship in every drama you can imagine (in all fairness, there are exceptions, like Blue Bloods and Elementary, for instance), and I am. sick. of. it.

How about Janeway and Chakotay in Enterprise? Back in my shippy days, I used to yell at the TV about THEM--  "Climb him, Janeway! Climb him like a tree!"  but she never did that I can remember. *smile*  My, how I've changed my tune....


 

Lue4028 wrote:

Is it safe to say the double standard is wrong when maybe there needs to be two standards because of the contrasting nature of male-male and male-female relationships? If we consider masculinity could play a role in their personality and how their behaviors influence others, i don't think it's a safe thought experiment to go switching genders..

I won't be going into gender discussions here, but I believe: love is love, no matter if we're talking about a male-male or a male-female (or female-female, for that matter) relationship.
I would agree that for the audience it's probably still more fascinating to be witness to a romantic relationship between two men as opposed to a heterosexual relationship. Still though, if a man looks into the eyes of another man like Sherlock does with John, then I personally do not think about how masculinity might play a role in their personality... I think 'Wow, John, somebody loves you...!', just as I would if we were talking about a male-female pairing in the exact same situation.
 

SolarSystem wrote:

  ...I would agree that for the audience it's probably still more fascinating to be witness to a romantic relationship between two men as opposed to a heterosexual relationship. Still though, if a man looks into the eyes of another man like Sherlock does with John, then I personally do not think about how masculinity might play a role in their personality... I think 'Wow, John, somebody loves you...!', just as I would if we were talking about a male-female pairing in the exact same situation.

He doesn't just look into John's eyes, he looks at him when John's not looking back, not paying any attention to him, doesn't even seem to be aware that Sherlock is standing nearby. I find that fascinating. I agree with your wow, John, somebody loves you thing. Exactly. I would add, wake up and smell the coffee, John, you're missing the best thing that ever happened to you.

Off to read some fan fic now. Sigh.
 

Last edited by ancientsgate (April 19, 2014 11:19 pm)

tonnaree wrote:

The idea is not how switching genders would change their relatioship.  It's about how, if one of them were a woman, and they still acted towards each other exactly as they do in the show, most people watching the show would immediately assume they are in love with each other.

That's it exactly, tonnaree. And that's what I meant with "double standards".