BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Johnlock: The Official Debate

Lue4028 · April 18, 2014 2:24 am

It's so obvious! How could I not see it. That's why it felt like a threesome wedding. Everything needed for a wedding between John and Sherlock is there. Proposal, shocked reaction, confessions, vows. No kiss but I think the hug oddly resembles one with the timing and all. The only time Mary and John kiss in front of everybody is really cursory, barely noticable, unlike the hug. The only thing missing would be Sherlock and John dancing together XD

Last edited by Lue4028 (April 18, 2014 2:25 am)

SusiGo · April 18, 2014 2:46 am

Exactly. You get the impression that actually Sherlock and John are the ones getting married. I had the idea the moment I saw the first pics from the wedding, both of them side by side in their beautiful morning coats.

That is what I have been talking about - there is something missing in the relationship between John and Mary. The writers and actors are excellent. If they wanted us to feel real love between those two, they would have managed to convince us. But apparently they did not, at least not all the audience. All the beautiful things that you would expect from a marriage - I am quoting you, Lue - proposal, shocked reaction, confessions, vows is there. We just do not get it from the married couple but from the bridegroom and his … best friend.
And you know what Mycroft says about coincidence.

Last edited by SusiGo (April 18, 2014 2:54 am)

Lue4028 · April 18, 2014 3:04 am

No way dude! That's when I felt like something was weird. What someone refered to as "partnerlook". I complained about it but it's supposed to be normal in the UK. >_>

So not normal...
Maybe the weird emphasis on Sherlock+John instead of John+Mary is because of the Sherlock POV.. maybe the perspective is scewed. God this show is ambiguous.

SherlocklivesinOH · April 18, 2014 3:11 am

SusiGo wrote:
Exactly. You get the impression that actually Sherlock and John are the ones getting married. I had the idea the moment I saw the first pics from the wedding, both of them side by side in their beautiful morning coats.

That is what I have been talking about - there is something missing in the relationship between John and Mary. The writers and actors are excellent. If they wanted us to feel real love between those two, they would have managed to convince us. But apparently they did not, at least not all the audience. All the beautiful things that you would expect from a marriage - I am quoting you, Lue - proposal, shocked reaction, confessions, vows is there. We just do not get it from the married couple but from the bridegroom and his … best friend.
And you know what Mycroft says about coincidence.

There's also the fact that of the three of them, John is the LEAST into planning the wedding...Sherlock gets involved in every aspect, and does treat it like his wedding in many ways. (When he could probably have sabotaged it if he wanted to.)

And then, John says he wants to be up there with, "the two people I love most in the world." He lumps them together, as if he were marrying them both.

SusiGo · April 18, 2014 3:12 am

I love this photo.
Yes, it may be due to Sherlock's POV. Think of the scene where John has to send him away so that the photographer can take a pic of the married couple. Of course he is inexperienced weddings not being his area but I think there is more to it. He wants John to have a perfect day but he misses his friend. Sherlock looking a the John's empty chair and "into battle" kill me every time. He knows he is losing John in a way and in the beginning of HLV we get the proof.

Cross-post, SherlockLives, and you are right. You get the impression that John is marrying two people at once.

Last edited by SusiGo (April 18, 2014 3:13 am)

SherlocklivesinOH · April 18, 2014 3:14 am

And the boys seem very comfortable sleeping together on the stairs. And when they touch each other's knees, they "don't mind." There's actually precedent for that in canon.

Further, we do not see John and Mary's vows, so we are free to imagine that all three of them made vows.

There are quite a few fan fics with, er, three-way...arrangements. More canon and the Guy Ritchie verse, though I can really see Abbington's Mary doing that. I wish they had used that to set CAM up, by making him think he could blackmail them over it.

Speaking of Abbington...do you know she's gotten death threats just for being Mary?

Last edited by SherlocklivesinOH (April 18, 2014 3:25 am)

Lue4028 · April 18, 2014 3:28 am

Is it sensible to marry two people at the same time? Is Moffat going after our preconceptions about marriage now.. And if we ask him, he'll deny that John is marrying Sherlock.
Yup, cuz she said J and S being friends is more interesting than J and S being gay. After a little reading I found that Amanda doesn't like Johnlock. She's worried her kid's gonna look it up.

Last edited by Lue4028 (April 18, 2014 3:36 am)

SusiGo · April 18, 2014 3:31 am

I did not really follow the whole Amanda thing but I think it is ridiculous to mix up real persons and the characters they play. Quite sad.

Lue4028 · April 18, 2014 3:36 am

I'm guilty of that with Mary. DX I'm really pro amanda/martin which kinda influences how I see John/Mary.

ancientsgate · April 18, 2014 4:05 am

Lue4028 wrote:
g-guys... it's edited to make it look like John and Sherlock got married..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyRJkwHtnKE

Very cool. Thanks for posting the link; I never would have seen it otherwise. Terrible, annoying, stoopid music, but otherwise, that totally worked for me, 'cause I'm easy. lol

ancientsgate · April 18, 2014 4:07 am

Lue4028 wrote:
It's so obvious! How could I not see it. That's why it felt like a threesome wedding. Everything needed for a wedding between John and Sherlock is there. Proposal, shocked reaction, confessions, vows. No kiss but I think the hug oddly resembles one with the timing and all. The only time Mary and John kiss in front of everybody is really cursory, barely noticable, unlike the hug. The only thing missing would be Sherlock and John dancing together XD

Well, Mary disappearing in a wisp of smoke was missing as well, but.... one can't hope for too much. The S/J hug made me cry when I first saw it, as did a few spots of Sherlock's best man speech. Wow.

ancientsgate · April 18, 2014 4:10 am

SusiGo wrote:
Exactly. You get the impression that actually Sherlock and John are the ones getting married. I had the idea the moment I saw the first pics from the wedding, both of them side by side in their beautiful morning coats.

That is what I have been talking about - there is something missing in the relationship between John and Mary. The writers and actors are excellent. If they wanted us to feel real love between those two, they would have managed to convince us. But apparently they did not, at least not all the audience. All the beautiful things that you would expect from a marriage - I am quoting you, Lue - proposal, shocked reaction, confessions, vows is there. We just do not get it from the married couple but from the bridegroom and his … best friend. And you know what Mycroft says about coincidence.

I have to get my DVDs out and rewatch TSoT. For sure. I need to wallow in it again, I guess. S3 took us on such a roller coaster of emotions, it was hard to take it all in;I've seen it 5 or 6 times, and I still see new stuff every time I watch. But I could watch the wedding reception stuff from start to end about 100 more times.

ancientsgate · April 18, 2014 4:16 am

Lue4028 wrote:
No way dude! That's when I felt like something was weird. What someone refered to as "partnerlook". I complained about it but it's supposed to be normal in the UK. >_>

So not normal...Maybe the weird emphasis on Sherlock+John instead of John+Mary is because of the Sherlock POV.. maybe the perspective is scewed. God this show is ambiguous.

What is partnerlook? Never heard of it before. Did you mean partnerlock? Sorry, I don't know this term.

Oh, I don't know about ambiguity. I think it's very clear-- Sherlock is in love with John Watson, has been for the longest time, maybe since first meeting, certainly since John killed the cab driver to protect Sherlock back in ASiP. He doesn't trust himself not to hurt John, at least not any more than he already has, plus John is always yelling about I'M NOT GAY!, so... I saw Sherlock doing and saying some pretty selfless things in TSoT, in order to ensure John's happiness, at least, that's what Sherlock thought he was doing. He loves him so much, he'd see him in the arms of someone else, if that's what John wants, rather than risk their friendship by revealing his love to John and possibly driving him off.

At least, this is the 'verse I live in. Y'all might live someplace else. You can see why I love Johnlock fic! Those two belong together, in every sense of the word, in my own mind palace.

ancientsgate · April 18, 2014 4:20 am

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:
There's also the fact that of the three of them, John is the LEAST into planning the wedding...Sherlock gets involved in every aspect, and does treat it like his wedding in many ways. (When he could probably have sabotaged it if he wanted to.)

And then, John says he wants to be up there with, "the two people I love most in the world." He lumps them together, as if he were marrying them both.

Those rascals who wrote S3 did all of that on purpose, you know. They put many, many months of thinking, discussing and writing into every single scene, every line of dialogue, and then those two beautiful actors made it all seem to come to life. Partly they're all toying with the viewers, and partly, well, I don't think TPTB are in any rush to get to the....ahem, climax..... of the question of Johnlock, whether or not they ever do.

ancientsgate · April 18, 2014 4:29 am

Lue4028 wrote:
.....After a little reading I found that Amanda doesn't like Johnlock. She's worried her kid's gonna look it up.

I think it's the fan art that concerns her most-- some of it is quite porny.

I don't know how old her kids are, I think they're early elementary school age, but perhaps it's time for her to start (gently, easily) educating them about what people who are in love often do together. And then she can talk about how some artistic people like to draw pictures or write stories about people in love. And then she needs to explain what Daddy and Uncle Ben do for a living, I guess, and how many millions and millions of people watch them on TV.

As a mom myself to two now-grown boys, I know first hand that sometimes as a parent, you get forced into educating your kids maybe sooner than you want. It bothers me when I hear AA whining and complaining about Johnlock in public.... I presume her real life is benefitting *greatly* from the way Martin's career has taken off, her kids will never want for anything, and, well.... this is the world we live in, m'dear, your kids will get exposed to what's on their computers and smart phones very soon, so pull up your big girl panties and deal. *shrug*

Sorry, I digress. I'll sliter back over under this shrub now.... just my two cents.

ancientsgate · April 18, 2014 4:32 am

SusiGo wrote:
I did not really follow the whole Amanda thing but I think it is ridiculous to mix up real persons and the characters they play. Quite sad.

There was a spat of mean!fans shoving Johnlock into Ben and Martin's faces at certian Q&A sessions a few months ago. It got pretty ugly, I guess. Poor guys, they dealt with it very gracefully, from all accounts. Some fans really need to take a chill pill and get over themselves. Not sure why this is happening in this fandom... I've been around fandoms since I was like 12, and I've never seen this lack of respect, desire to shock, and pressing an uncomfortable issue where it should never be pressed before. Makes me sad.

ancientsgate · April 18, 2014 4:35 am

Lue4028 wrote:
I'm guilty of that with Mary. DX I'm really pro amanda/martin which kinda influences how I see John/Mary.

I couldn't figure out then and still can't figure out whyever they cast Amanda as Mary! What could they have been thinking? Yes, she's a good actress, the right age, pretty enough, and she knows everyone in the cast and crew, so she easily fit right into their little group, I get that. But what kind of a bubble do TPTB live in anyway, that they didn't get an inkling about how Mary getting between Sherlock and John might cause an earth tremor or two or twelve amongst all the little girl fans? ???

besleybean · April 18, 2014 7:17 am

You've answered your own question.
Amanda was deliberatley chosen as she's so popular in the fandom, they thought she would be the only person acceptable to fans.
They should have known they would never please those who can't stand anybody getting between Sherlock and John.
It only remains to be seen if they bow to fan pressure and bump Mary off...tho she conveniently does die in Canon.

Last edited by besleybean (April 18, 2014 7:18 am)

Tinks · April 18, 2014 7:32 am

I don't see "Johnlock" personally, just a very beautifully crafted, loving and tolerant friendship between two Men who for different reasons don't make friendships easily (or at all, in one of their cases!)
So Mary's entrance was never a problem for me (what they did with her was, but that's for another thread!)
However, having read lots of stuff about the fanart, fanfic etc., I do have some thoughts about how the issue has been handled at times - both on the fans' side and the Actors.
I think Benedict and Martin always seem to be very respectful of it. I think that in recent times, maybe Benedict has shown himself to be aware of the problems Amanda has with it. I think there are certain situations which maybe Amanda might have handled differently (I have a bit of an issue on one thing in particular but I not sure I should voice an opinion on it). And I think that the art and the fiction around Johnlock is something which maybe should stay inside the fandom and not be presented to the Actors, anyway - although from what I've seen, it seems to be oh-so-funny journalists and Interviewers that try to embarrass the fans and Actors alike, by drawing attention to it, rather than the fans themselves.

SolarSystem · April 18, 2014 8:16 am

Lue4028 wrote:
The only thing missing would be Sherlock and John dancing together XD

But even the dance sort of happens, even if it's not in the 'traditional' way. At the beginning of TSoT Sherlock is "road testing" in 221B and even though he dances on his own... it's to the music he composed himself - and later John will dance to that music. And before John and Mary keep on dancing at the wedding, we learn that Sherlock has given John dancing lessons at one point in 221B... so even if we don't see the boys dancing together, all that I could think of when John and Mary started dancing again was Sherlock and John dancing together.