BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Johnlock: The Official Debate

besleybean · April 16, 2014 3:04 pm

The latter, Steven is not homophobic.

Luvin Sherlock · April 16, 2014 7:02 pm

Isnt this based loosley on The Private Lives of SH from the 70's? They definitely set it up as are they or are they not?. But its grown into this huge fan base on the net. I dont have any problems with it find a lot of funny.

JNinSoCal · April 16, 2014 10:49 pm

I think that confusion with S3 can best be understood by recognizing that this season was "told" from Sherlock's point of view. If we consider S1 and S2 from John's POV, much of this confusion disappears. John introduces us to both Sherlock and himself in the first 6 episodes, so this is how we expect them to behave; Sherlock, a demanding--somewhat other-worldly---sociopath and John a warm, devoted companion and care-taker.

In S3, both characters go off the rails and no longer behave like the characters we have come to know and love--which is extremely disorienting. The only way we could understand Sherlock's growing realization of his love for John is when we see these events from his point of view. This is one reason why HLV was so heartbreaking---we can observe Sherlock's transformation, while John still views him as a uncaring sociopath.

This is the most meaningful Romantic Obstacle from season three---Sherlock and John's incomprehension of the other's heart.

SusiGo · April 16, 2014 11:35 pm

Ian Hallard is Mark's husband.

JNinSoCal · April 17, 2014 12:11 am

besleybean wrote:
Mark and Steven do not do fan fiction.....

The series Sherlock is Moftiss' fan fiction; FF of an extraordinarily high quality, but FF nonetheless.

SusiGo · April 17, 2014 12:12 am

I seem to remember them saying something like that and calling themselves fanboys.

On another note: it is quite interesting to read what Mark Gatiss has to say about Billy Wilder's "Private Life of Sherlock Holmes". Like Wilder regretting later that he did not make Holmes' love for Watson more explicit. Mark calls it the film that changed his life:
http://www.theguardian.com/film/2010/nov/07/mark-gatiss-sherlock-holmes

Last edited by SusiGo (April 17, 2014 12:25 am)

JNinSoCal · April 17, 2014 12:30 am

SusiGo wrote:
I seem to remember them saying something like that and calling themselves fanboys.

On another note: it is quite interesting to read what Mark Gatiss has to say about Billy Wilder's "Private Life of Sherlock Holmes". Like Wilder regretting later that he did not make Holmes' love for Watson more explicit. Mark calls it the film that changed his life:
http://www.theguardian.com/film/2010/nov/07/mark-gatiss-sherlock-holmes

For those "cluing for looks", this is a gigantic clue!

ancientsgate · April 17, 2014 2:10 am

JNinSoCal wrote:
besleybean wrote:
Mark and Steven do not do fan fiction.....
The series Sherlock is Moftiss' fan fiction; FF of an extraordinarily high quality, but FF nonetheless.

Interesting idea. I wonder if Moffatt would admit to that. I believe I agree. After all, all of the Sherlock incarnations, based on ACD's original work, were and are fan fic works, aren't they.

You know, people make light of fan fiction, but IMO there's a LOT of fabulous writing in fan fic-- some of the authors are as adept at story-telling as any of the pros.

JNinSoCal · April 17, 2014 2:35 am

ancientsgate wrote:
JNinSoCal wrote:
besleybean wrote:
Mark and Steven do not do fan fiction.....
The series Sherlock is Moftiss' fan fiction; FF of an extraordinarily high quality, but FF nonetheless.

Interesting idea. I wonder if Moffatt would admit to that. I believe I agree. After all, all of the Sherlock incarnations, based on ACD's original work, were and are fan fic works, aren't they.

You know, people make light of fan fiction, but IMO there's a LOT of fabulous writing in fan fic-- some of the authors are as adept at story-telling as any of the pros.

Star Trek: Into Darkness is FF based on the ST canon created by Gene Roddenberry. I think that any new story based on the characters created by a previous author basically fits the description of fan fiction.

SusiGo · April 17, 2014 2:38 am

During a recent Q & A one of the two said that they started out as fanboys writing their own version of SH and encouraged aspiring writers to do what so many have done before and thereby becoming the next generation of writers. Sorry, I cannot find a link at the moment but it was an excellent and respectful answer.
I agree that all new adaptations of existing literature are a form of fanfiction and BBC Sherlock is a brilliant new version of ACD's canon. And it is a good basis to have an original author who gave his okay to creating new versions based on his writings.

ancientsgate · April 17, 2014 2:48 am

SusiGo wrote:
...I agree that all new adaptations of existing literature are a form of fanfiction and BBC Sherlock is a brilliant new version of ACD's canon. And it is a good basis to have an original author who gave his okay to creating new versions based on his writings.

One of my major fandoms of the last 10 years was Brokeback Mountain. If you remember the story, Jack Twist is eventually beaten to death beside the road by some redneck thugs who took exception to his homosexuality. So almost 100% of the fan fic that came out of that book and movie had to be labeled AU because Jack *lived*, and he and Ennis DelMar got their sweet life together. The fan fic fixed the tragedy of Jack's death and his and Ennis' eternal separation. But the author of the original BBM book, Annie Proulx, HATED fan fic and all fan fiction authors and sicced her lawyers on at least 2 or 3 of the best ones, afraid that they might go commercial with some of their (excellent) ideas, I guess. I felt bad about all of that. BBM was a small but precious fandom that mostly withered away after Heath Ledger's tragic death in early '09.

One thing about Sherlock, ACD is long gone, and Mofftiss are fan boys themselves, so at least no one's siccing the lawyers on anyone, far as I know.

SusiGo · April 17, 2014 2:55 am

Interesting, I did not know about that. I think there are writers who have created a story that is complete in itself and do not want anyone to write spin-offs. ACD was quite different in this. I think I quoted this already:

One example of Doyle's attitude about Holmes can be seen in his correspondence with the American stage actor William Gillette, who wrote an immensely popular play about Holmes and asked permission to have Holmes get married in the drama."Doyle sent him a telegram back that said: 'You may marry him or murder him or do whatever you like with him."

Which is much more than just not suing people over fanfiction but a sort of blessing.

Last edited by SusiGo (April 17, 2014 2:56 am)

besleybean · April 17, 2014 7:17 am

I agree,but it's Mark's and Steven's fan fictiion and is not slash.

April 17, 2014 7:32 am

SusiGo wrote:
Interesting, I did not know about that. I think there are writers who have created a story that is complete in itself and do not want anyone to write spin-offs. ACD was quite different in this. I think I quoted this already:

One example of Doyle's attitude about Holmes can be seen in his correspondence with the American stage actor William Gillette, who wrote an immensely popular play about Holmes and asked permission to have Holmes get married in the drama."Doyle sent him a telegram back that said: 'You may marry him or murder him or do whatever you like with him."

Which is much more than just not suing people over fanfiction but a sort of blessing.

And in a funny twist this scornful attitude that seemingly didn't bother about Holmes existence in fact made it possible for him to survive in various incarnations. Has someone ever imagined that he could be able to kill an unarmed person in cold blood before?

besleybean · April 17, 2014 7:40 am

Sally.
And I was wrong to disagree with her.

Last edited by besleybean (April 17, 2014 7:40 am)

ancientsgate · April 17, 2014 11:37 am

besleybean wrote:
I agree,but it's Mark's and Steven's fan fictiion and is not slash.

Probably most fan fiction is not slash. Not sure about the Sherlock fandom, since I only read Johnlock and don't have my ear to the ground about anything else. But there's got to be a ton-load of casework fic as well as friendship fic (Sherlock and John, Sherlock and Lestrade, Sherlock and Molly, the guys and Mrs. H, etc)

tonnaree · April 17, 2014 11:45 am

besleybean wrote:
I agree,but it's Mark's and Steven's fan fictiion and is not slash.

YET! *giggle*

(sorry BB, I had to!)

Lue4028 · April 17, 2014 11:04 pm

g-guys... it's edited to make it look like John and Sherlock got married..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyRJkwHtnKE

SusiGo · April 17, 2014 11:10 pm

And they really did not have to edit it that much.

JNinSoCal · April 18, 2014 1:46 am

SusiGo wrote:

And they really did not have to edit it that much.

A Johnlock episode tucked within TSoT. Brilliant!

Last edited by JNinSoCal (April 18, 2014 2:03 am)