BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Johnlock: The Official Debate

besleybean · April 14, 2014 4:36 pm

It's a bit like that with sexuality.

tonnaree · April 14, 2014 5:09 pm

SolarSystem wrote:
I'm afraid I'm going round in circles, but methinks the lady doth protest too much. I don't even doubt that John honestly believes it when he repeatedly protests "I am not gay!". But stranger things have happened. He wouldn't be the first man in his mid-forties to finally realize that he's not straight. Men divorce their wives because they finally realize or can admit to themselves that they love men.
I hear what he's saying, but I observe something else.

You beat me to it Solar. I was going to say exactly this. It happens to women too.
I don't think you can change your sexuality in the way that some people insist being gay is a choice. But I do think that all of our urges are not necessarily carved in stone. I think it's possible to discover an attraction that we never thought possible because we fall in love with the person regardless of their gender.  Hell, to be totally honest it happened to me in my late 20's early 30's. I fell like a ton of bricks for someone and that someone was a woman. I had always considered myself straight and went through a lot of confusion about it all. But eventually I made peace with the fact that I'm attracted to men and women.

All of this is to say that I believe that John being bisexual is a certainly a possiblity, even if it's never canon, regardless of how many times he says he's not gay.

(PS. I apologize to anyone who felt that was TMI but I thought it relevant to the conversation. )

Last edited by tonnaree (April 14, 2014 5:10 pm)

besleybean · April 14, 2014 5:17 pm

Not too much information at all and everything you say is true...
But I just don't think it is for John.
There has neevr been anything to suggest he is bisexual or has anything but deep friendship for Sherlock.
Do we assume everybody is bisexual until proved one way or the other?

ancientsgate · April 14, 2014 8:38 pm

SolarSystem wrote:
I'm afraid I'm going round in circles, but methinks the lady doth protest too much. I don't even doubt that John honestly believes it when he repeatedly protests "I am not gay!". But stranger things have happened. He wouldn't be the first man in his mid-forties to finally realize that he's not straight. Men divorce their wives because they finally realize or can admit to themselves that they love men.I hear what he's saying, but I observe something else.

Which is the basis for all the wonderful Johnlock fan fic and fan art out there. For those who write first times and who enjoy reading them, what made one or both of the guys look at the other "in that way", and how did they find the courage to approach the other "in that way", and then what fun ensued? Or maybe it wasn't fun, maybe it was fraught with angst and regrets and woes of all kinds! The possibilities are endless.

But I don't want the actual show to go there. I don't want ship of any kind, het or gay, either one. Tell the detective stories, tell us stories of everyone's friendship, but for the love of god, keep everyone's hands off each other. Personally, I can't wait for them to make Mary go away, however that has to happen.

ancientsgate · April 14, 2014 8:41 pm

besleybean wrote:
Well I guss the proof will be in the pudding....
when we eventually see Sherlock and John in a relationship.
This is rather than the current 2 camps of Johnlockers:
1. Sherlock and John are already in a relationship.
2. Hopefully John and Sherlock will one day be in relationship.

Are there people saying that they think S/J are already lovers in the show, just that TPTB aren't showing it to us? Huh. I don't see that, not at all. I see a real bromance, but I also see Sherlock who won't go there with anyone because he's married to his work, and John, who thinks he's straight, so.... if the two characters are doing it when the cameras aren't running (lololol....), I don't see that much subtext. There's subtext, but to me, not that much.

besleybean · April 14, 2014 8:46 pm

You my all remember I congratulated Mary for lasting the series, cos I didn't think she would!
To a certain extent I accept her, cos she's Canon.
There are several ways they can take the Mary thing and we'll just have to wait and see.
But regardless of that, one of my main likes about Sherlock is that it is relatively sex free, especially regarding the leads.
So refreshing, when all other TV seem to dwell on brdeoom scenes.
I'm(shockingly) not that bothered about the mysteries, it is the friendship I love.
This deep love between these 2 men...

Last edited by besleybean (April 14, 2014 8:48 pm)

ancientsgate · April 14, 2014 8:49 pm

besleybean wrote:
Do we assume everybody is bisexual until proved one way or the other?

The Kinsey scale says that there's a whole range of human orientation, all the way from 100% gay to 100% straight, with lots of stops along the way in between. With human emotions and interactions, things are seldom black and white, or as Kinsey observed, divided into sheep and goats.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale

I've been reading slash fan fic for 10 years now, and my motto is, if an author can make me believe it (write her story and her characters in such a way to make me believe it), I will swallow any damned thing about people falling for someone of the same gender, and I don't care who they are or have been. I know not all fan fic readers are as easy to please as I am, however. Hey, there are loads of Sherlock watchers who are completely and utterly turned off by the idea of Sherlock and John as anything but friends and colleagues; they wouldn't touch Johnlock fic with a ten foot pole, and that's fine-- each to his own.

ancientsgate · April 14, 2014 8:55 pm

besleybean wrote:
You my all remember I congratulated Mary for lasting the series, cos I didn't think she would!
To a certain extent I accept her, cos she's Canon.
There are several ways they can take the Mary thing and we'll just have to wait and see.
But regardless of that, one of my main likes about Sherlock is that it is relatively sex free, especially regarding the leads.
So refreshing, when all other TV seem to dwell on brdeoom scenes.
I'm(shockingly) not that bothered about the mysteries, it is the friendship I love.
This deep love between these 2 men...

Yes, it's very intriguing, and has been, ever since ACD created them.
I agree about the desirability of no ship. Please, god, no (sexual) ship...

SusiGo · April 14, 2014 11:24 pm

Just one question because I have been wondering about this:
We have not seen any sex scenes so far in the show and I am fine with that. But I really do not see why Johnlock becoming a reality in the show would have to change this. Why should there be wild sex the moment they get it on? Why not just a kiss and some hugging? I would be very happy to see that and I do not need more (we have fanfics to cover this aspect). But having this would make me happy.

Last edited by SusiGo (April 14, 2014 11:27 pm)

tonnaree · April 15, 2014 1:47 am

SusiGo wrote:
Just one question because I have been wondering about this:
We have not seen any sex scenes so far in the show and I am fine with that. But I really do not see why Johnlock becoming a reality in the show would have to change this. Why should there be wild sex the moment they get it on? Why not just a kiss and some hugging? I would be very happy to see that and I do not need more (we have fanfics to cover this aspect). But having this would make me happy.

Excellent point Susi. Just because you know two people on a show are having a sexual relationship doesn't mean we're going to see them having sex. We haven't seen John and Mary having sex. I honestly think that if Johnlock became canon the actual show wouldn't change except for some emotional aspects.

ancientsgate · April 15, 2014 2:44 am

SusiGo wrote:
Just one question because I have been wondering about this:
We have not seen any sex scenes so far in the show and I am fine with that. But I really do not see why Johnlock becoming a reality in the show would have to change this. Why should there be wild sex the moment they get it on? Why not just a kiss and some hugging? I would be very happy to see that and I do not need more (we have fanfics to cover this aspect). But having this would make me happy.

I see your point. I guess we all have a POV about this, and TPTB cannot (IMO, they shouldn't even try to) please us all.

The biggest reason I don't want to actually see Johnlock, even PG rated Johnlock, is because I don't trust the all-male Sherlock writing staff to handle it well, to write it right. I don't bow down at the feet of Gatiss and the other writers like most Sherlock fans do, I guess. And if he and all the other male writers can't write it right (ie, the way *I* think it should be written, lol), then I'd rather not see them go there. I get whoa!more than enough Johnlock in the fan fic I read, and that satisfies me.

Somehow it worked with Captain Jack in Torchwood, but Torchwood was a very different show than Sherlock, Barrowman is gay in RL, and he never had the chemistry with Iago or whatever his name was, on the show, IMO, not like Sherlock and John do. In Sherlock, for TPTB to "go there" and let S and J finally fall into each other's arms, even PG-rated, would change a major component of the show-- if they ship the two of them, there would be no more friendship-bromance, and IMO again, the friendship is at least half the solid foundation of the show.

Just my two cents.

SolarSystem · April 15, 2014 4:54 am

tonnaree wrote:
SusiGo wrote:
Just one question because I have been wondering about this:
We have not seen any sex scenes so far in the show and I am fine with that. But I really do not see why Johnlock becoming a reality in the show would have to change this. Why should there be wild sex the moment they get it on? Why not just a kiss and some hugging? I would be very happy to see that and I do not need more (we have fanfics to cover this aspect). But having this would make me happy.

Excellent point Susi. Just because you know two people on a show are having a sexual relationship doesn't mean we're going to see them having sex. We haven't seen John and Mary having sex. I honestly think that if Johnlock became canon the actual show wouldn't change except for some emotional aspects.

I totally agree. I might have said this before, but it sometimes seems to me as if a lot of people who are not Johnlockers somehow think that Johnlock only means that the boys get into each others pants constantly, 24 hours a day. But that's not what Johnlock is about, at least not exclusively. There is so much more. And yes, it seems totally okay for John and Mary to kiss, probably because it's Canon, but certainly also because it's a heterosexual relationship.

SolarSystem · April 15, 2014 5:18 am

ancientsgate wrote:
if they ship the two of them, there would be no more friendship-bromance, and IMO again, the friendship is at least half the solid foundation of the show.

I don't think I get this... why would there be no more friendship/bromance if they (and I guess with 'they' you mean TPTB) ship them...?
I don't even think that they need to ship them - at least not in the way in which Johnlockers ship them - in order to get this right. They wouldn't even have to write what we understand as 'Johnlock', and they certainly wouldn't call it that anyway. Like Susi said, it could still be quite subtle, but with some hugging and a kiss. And I honestly don't think (and that's just my opinion, of course) that this would take away the deep and special friendship that John and Sherlock have shared so far. I strongly believe that you can have both!

ancientsgate · April 15, 2014 6:36 am

SolarSystem wrote:
ancientsgate wrote:
if they ship the two of them, there would be no more friendship-bromance, and IMO again, the friendship is at least half the solid foundation of the show.
I don't think I get this... why would there be no more friendship/bromance if they (and I guess with 'they' you mean TPTB) ship them...?
I don't even think that they need to ship them - at least not in the way in which Johnlockers ship them - in order to get this right. They wouldn't even have to write what we understand as 'Johnlock', and they certainly wouldn't call it that anyway. Like Susi said, it could still be quite subtle, but with some hugging and a kiss. And I honestly don't think (and that's just my opinion, of course) that this would take away the deep and special friendship that John and Sherlock have shared so far. I strongly believe that you can have both!

If they show a kiss, a sexual kiss, and a shippy hug, and stop there, the audience will take the leap and believe that Johnlock is now canon, whether or not we ever see other signs of romantic affection between them. So yeah, a simple kiss and hug would totally change the character of the present deep friendship that forms the backbone of the stories (along with the casework, of course). Friends and colleagues, that's one thing, but if the writers show that the guys have become an item, then yeah, we will have stepped out of the realms of male/male friendship and into the wide wide world of gay romance. I wouldn't hold my breath, waiting for any of them to go there.

And aside from all that, I do wonder what Ben and Martin think about the idea, whether or not they'd be willing to go there. I think Martin has said he would, but let's face it, Ben's career is in the stratosphere right now, he doesn't need the publicity (some would say, notoriety) from playing a "I turned gay for HIM" role.

Ah, time will tell. We have lots and lots and lots of months ahead of us to wonder about this, unfortunately.

besleybean · April 15, 2014 7:24 am

Of all the things that could happen in this show.
That's the one thing I know won't.

kaye · April 16, 2014 1:08 am

I have never been a fan of Johnlock, and never wanted to see these two characters in a sexual relationship. BBC Sherlock has gone out of the way to make it clear that there is no homosexual relationship between these two, and that John is a heterosexual male.

However, I have had to seriously question Sherlock's motives in this friendship after series three. When Sherlock freaking comes back to life after flat lining, because he realized John was in danger - well, I just wish he could have done something like that for Molly. I just felt season three took their relationship to a new level, at least for Sherlock. It seemed more to me like romantic love on his part. It was just weird. I didn't like it one bit. In the original cannon, Sherlock's disinterest in woman or romantic relationships was explained away by the fact that he was too engrossed in his work, too focused, to let anything get in the way. But In the BBC series, they went so far as to let us know Sherlock is a virgin. In this light, his attachment to John just seems very homo-erotic to me. I still don't see any change on John's part. I don't know what to make of it all.

Last edited by kaye (April 16, 2014 1:10 am)

tonnaree · April 16, 2014 1:33 am

kaye wrote:
I have never been a fan of Johnlock, and never wanted to see these two characters in a sexual relationship. BBC Sherlock has gone out of the way to make it clear that there is no homosexual relationship between these two, and that John is a heterosexual male.

However, I have had to seriously question Sherlock's motives in this friendship after series three. When Sherlock freaking comes back to life after flat lining, because he realized John was in danger - well, I just wish he could have done something like that for Molly. I just felt season three took their relationship to a new level, at least for Sherlock. It seemed more to me like romantic love on his part. It was just weird. I didn't like it one bit. In the original cannon, Sherlock's disinterest in woman or romantic relationships was explained away by the fact that he was too engrossed in his work, too focused, to let anything get in the way. But In the BBC series, they went so far as to let us know Sherlock is a virgin. In this light, his attachment to John just seems very homo-erotic to me. I still don't see any change on John's part. I don't know what to make of it all.

We may not be watching the same show. *giggle*

SusiGo · April 16, 2014 1:53 am

Sorry, but I do not see anything romantic in Sherlock's relationship with Molly. I love the way it developed, no doubt, but while she is clearly still very much interested in Sherlock (and chooses a boyfriend who has a superficial resemblance with him) he appreciates her as a friend and professional. I do not see anything else than that.

Sherlock only once mentions loving another person and that is John. TSOT as a whole is a declaration of love (in whatever shape). He goes out of his way to give John his perfect wedding. He publicly presents an unsolved case (remember what he once said about unsolved cases in the blog?). And do not get me started on HLV.

We should not just look at what is said but also at all the other elements of filmmaking - use of colours, photography, music.

Ancientsgate: I do not quite understand your argument about the "I turned gay for him" role. We do not know anything about Sherlock's sexuality expect that girlfriends are not really his area and that he may be a virgin according to Mycroft resp. Moriarty. So he might be gay without acting it out. Not once does he deny that he and John are a couple, have a date, whatever.
As for Benedict's career - I cannot imagine that it would do any damage to his career to play the first openly gay Sherlock Holmes. Or course he does not have to and as I said before it is up to the writers where to go from here but why should it be detrimental to his career?
After all we are all looking forward to see him playing a gay man whose life was ruined because he he chose to live out his homosexuality and was punished for it.

Last edited by SusiGo (April 16, 2014 2:01 am)

Lue4028 · April 16, 2014 4:25 am

homo-erotic? O.o It's homoromantic!
Unless the attachment to John you're refering to involves body parts. Why do you want it to be about molly? The dominant, most important, and cental relationship has been Sherlock and Watson from the start. Why wouldn't season 3 reflect season 1 and 2, where Sherlock and John are risking their lives for each other?
Sherlock loves John, he'll go to extraordinary lengths for him, and this has nothing to do with sexuality. They both can be straight and still love each other like that, even if it breaks social norms and everyone's minds.

Last edited by Lue4028 (April 16, 2014 4:30 am)

SolarSystem · April 16, 2014 4:32 am

I completely agree with you, Susi.
Of course I have no idea what's important for Benedict when it comes to the roles he wants to play, but I don't believe for one second that he'd refuse to play an openly gay Sherlock. Of course it would have to be well-written and believable and just damn good story telling (as it always should be), then I don't see what might stop him. I doubt that he bases his decisions on the sexual orientation of a character.

And yes, not once did Sherlock say that he's not gay or that John is not his date. He never said anything to all the things that got thrown at him (and John) in terms of his (their) sexuality. So I'd say we have to see and observe and decide for ourselves.

edit:
Just found this on tumblr and absolutely love it:

Sherlock bought a book to help him write his best man speech for John I bet he’d buy like 18 books on relationships and how to be a good boyfriend and it’d take him months to get over all the insecurities and for John to convince him he just wants him to be himself and he doesn’t have to do any of that altho his short poems are not too bad.
(http://shylocks.tumblr.com/post/82294588316/sherlock-bought-a-book-to-help-him-write-his-best)

Last edited by SolarSystem (April 16, 2014 5:04 am)