BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Discussions on the John and Sherlock relationship

Sherli Bakerst · June 23, 2012 1:40 pm

Just to clarify: I wasn't saying that the only kind of angst is sexual in nature. Of course, there are many, many other types of angst. In fact, I've written lots of fanfics (non-Sherlock) whose genre was angst.

wimsey · June 23, 2012 8:30 pm

As someone who goes as far back as when the original Star Trek was on TV in the 60's, I remember when I first read in a newspaper article about the 'slash' stories of the main characters, how I thought the idea was so absurd and strange. Now I understand why they existed - the actors who played Kirk and Spock were so exceptional that they piqued the creative imagination of their fans to write stories about them, whether sexual or not. My own obsession with the 'will they or won't they' relationship of two exceptionally well-played fictitious characters were Muldar and Scully of 'The X-Files', and I was vastly disappointed to see that relationship flounder when David Duchovny left the show (but I certainly did enjoy the fan fic at that time!)

With Sherlock and John, we have our latest exceptionally well played fictitious TV characters along with the responding fan discussions and fic, and it is wondrous to see again how this piques our imagination. It is incredibly fun (isn't it?) to dissect the relationship in all its many forms. In our heads (and hearts) we explore how their relationship pertains to ourselves, and then those of us who can will put it to prose or other talent. For myself, I especially liked Keepers Price idea of how we Sherlockians use John as a buffer since there would be no way that we ourselves would be able to have any kind of successful relationship with Sherlock. How true is that?

Sentimental Pulse · June 23, 2012 9:43 pm

ancientsgate wrote:
Sentimental Pulse wrote:
.......I also believe that John is the first rodeo rider that bucking bronco Sherlock has not been able to shake off his back with his annoying, blunt, self indulgent ways.....The reality is Sherlock is so hideously unique he just can't relate to or find suitable friends. .....
I love the metaphor about the rodeo rider and the bucking bronco. How clever.... and apt. Well put! You made me smile.

And yes, poor Sherlock is hideously unique; you're right. And he knows it. I prefer to think that knowing it causes him some pain, somewhere, down underneath that busy, thinking-everything-to-death exterior, but I believe he's helpless to be any different, almost as though he accepted his true nature long ago and stopped fighting it. Now he just wishes everyone else would stop fighting it, too, I'm sure.

Does it bother him when Donovan calls him "Freak"? I think it does. I think he's torn about it-- wanting badly not to care what she or anyone else thinks of him, but feeling so superior to others that if they need to think he's a freak, then so be it.

John sticks around. Sherlock can't, as you say, buck him off. Perhaps Sherlock is John's calling. His destiny. Whoever created this modern Sherlock incarnation is pure genius, IMO, but I also give loads of credit to Ben and Martin and their acting skills. It's been lovely to watch. They have simply made their Sherlock and John come to life.

I think you've nailed it, ancientsgate. I see it exactly the same way. Glad you mentioned Donovan. I can't stand that horrid woman calling our Sherlock those names. Totally unprofessional, antagonistic and full of jealousy. Yes I think her taunts do bother him. All great fictional heroes need a flaw. No one wants a Mary Sue character. Sherlock's flaw is his ability to relate socally.

ancientsgate · June 23, 2012 10:03 pm

wimsey wrote:
As someone who goes as far back as when the original Star Trek was on TV in the 60's, I remember when I first read in a newspaper article about the 'slash' stories of the main characters, how I thought the idea was so absurd and strange. Now I understand why they existed - the actors who played Kirk and Spock were so exceptional that they piqued the creative imagination of their fans to write stories about them, whether sexual or not. My own obsession with the 'will they or won't they' relationship of two exceptionally well-played fictitious characters were Muldar and Scully of 'The X-Files', and I was vastly disappointed to see that relationship flounder when David Duchovny left the show (but I certainly did enjoy the fan fic at that time!)

With Sherlock and John, we have our latest exceptionally well played fictitious TV characters along with the responding fan discussions and fic, and it is wondrous to see again how this piques our imagination. It is incredibly fun (isn't it?) to dissect the relationship in all its many forms. In our heads (and hearts) we explore how their relationship pertains to ourselves, and then those of us who can will put it to prose or other talent. For myself, I especially liked Keepers Price idea of how we Sherlockians use John as a buffer since there would be no way that we ourselves would be able to have any kind of successful relationship with Sherlock. How true is that?

So well put, everything you wrote there. I never discovered fan fiction or slash until I got involved in the Stargate SG-1 universe in about 2003 (it had been around without me for at least 5 years by then!) The slash OTP in that 'verse is Jack O'Neill and Daniel Jackson. I actually wrote 30 J/D short stories in that fandom, back in the day. Then I fell headfirst into the Brokeback Mountain fandom-- some of the most delicious Jack Twist/Ennis DelMar slash fiction came out of that for over 3 or 4 years, at least until the tragic death of Heath Ledger, which put a damper on everyone's spirits. Now I'm so excited to find Sherlock/John (I don't like calling them Johnlock-- too cutesy for this old lady, lol) and find myself intrigued all over again, in yet another fandom. To me, this is guilty pleasure fun and nothing to be taken seriously.

ancientsgate · June 23, 2012 10:08 pm

Sentimental Pulse wrote:
Glad you mentioned Donovan. I can't stand that horrid woman calling our Sherlock those names. Totally unprofessional, antagonistic and full of jealousy. Yes I think her taunts do bother him. All great fictional heroes need a flaw. No one wants a Mary Sue character. Sherlock's flaw is his ability to relate socally.

Ah, I believe Donovan was put there on purpose by the show's creators. Doesn't it make us root for Sherlock and his eccentricities even more, every time she gets all verbally abusive with him? Every time she starts in, my ire gets all worked up, and I start an internal cheer-leading session for him all over again, lol. I love that Sherlock gets to be the champion for all the socially inept high-functioning sociopaths in the world, at least the part of the world that watches BBC and PBS, lol.

Sherlock Holmes · June 24, 2012 7:27 pm

ancientsgate wrote:
Sentimental Pulse wrote:
Glad you mentioned Donovan. I can't stand that horrid woman calling our Sherlock those names. Totally unprofessional, antagonistic and full of jealousy. Yes I think her taunts do bother him. All great fictional heroes need a flaw. No one wants a Mary Sue character. Sherlock's flaw is his ability to relate socally.
Ah, I believe Donovan was put there on purpose by the show's creators. Doesn't it make us root for Sherlock and his eccentricities even more, every time she gets all verbally abusive with him? Every time she starts in, my ire gets all worked up, and I start an internal cheer-leading session for him all over again, lol. I love that Sherlock gets to be the champion for all the socially inept high-functioning sociopaths in the world, at least the part of the world that watches BBC and PBS, lol.

I know this is getting slightly off topic but Donovan infuriates me so much, especially every time I watch Reichenbach. She's such easy prey for Moriarty...I honestly think she should be forced to apologise to Sherlock.

ancientsgate · June 24, 2012 10:23 pm

Sherlock Holmes wrote:
I know this is getting slightly off topic but Donovan infuriates me so much, especially every time I watch Reichenbach. She's such easy prey for Moriarty...I honestly think she should be forced to apologise to Sherlock.

I'd love to see John tell her off, just once. He listens to her "theories" about Sherlock and what he's up to and what nefarious things she thinks Sherlock is capable of, but John never seems to really tell her to.... go away. Is he too polite? Because whether or not he and Sherlock are just friends and colleagues or there is, in fact, something more between them, I think it would infuriate John to listen to that crap. He only took two lines of disrespect about Sherlock from that cop inspector guy (Lestrade's CO) and then very coolly broke the guy's nose. I know Donovan is a woman and so therefore not in danger of getting her nose broken, but I wish John would tell her to go get ------.

KeepersPrice · June 25, 2012 1:59 am

I am having such a great time reading everyone's thoughts! So many things I would like to respond to - it's hard to know where to start. First to Ancientsgate (my neighbor to the north) and Whimsy - you two really know so much about fan fiction and the slash concept. Thanks for the explanations. I was in on the ground floor of the early Star Trek days myself. As I told Sherli Bakerst, I used to go to the conventions dressed in my cute little blue Star Fleet science office costume complete with high boots and a phaser :-). I remember when I first learned fans were writing stories about Kirk and Spock having a relationship, I think my jaw dropped to the floor - but at the same time I was quite fascinated and wanted to see what it was all about. Those were the days of fanzines - no internet then. I got a hold of some zines and found the subject quite fascinating (as Spock might say) but at the same time a little disturbing. The stories and fan art had me in some kind of thrall. They didn't actually "turn me on" (I'm just too damn hetero) but at the same time there was an element of excitement and interest I couldn't quite label.

Then I became a fan of Marion Zimmer Bradley's SF/fantasy Darkover series and really became a big part of Darkover fandom. Her world focuses on stories about a sort of medieval ruling caste called Comyn who possess unique telepathic gifts called "laran". These various gifts can be channeled and have great powers. The stories are wildly emotional and romantic and I was completely drawn in. I was especially drawn to the descriptions of intimacy within a telepathic relationship. This was deeply explored in her book "The Heritage of Hastur". I was fascinated with the idea of total rapport with another person so that all barriers are down and complete oneness with the other is achieved. It was an intimacy beyond the physical - but if physicality became part of it too it happened as part of the total experience. I became interested in a back story between two characters Regis Hastur and Lew Alton that had been hinted at but not written. In my story Lew is about 16 or 17 - an angry, proud and intense young man but with such nobility and goodness in his soul its heartbreaking. Regis is younger, the heir to the most powerful clan in the Comyn but lonely and insecure. I won't go into details but it became a slash story between these two during an intense night working together to prevent a raging forest fire from reaching Lew's ancestral home. Somehow I got the courage to send the thing to Marion Zimmer Bradley. She was an author very supportive of her fans and their creative efforts and I was over the moon when she wrote back to me and told me she wanted my story to be the lead in her first official fanzine. So you see, I was a slash author before I even knew what the word meant :-)

This fascination with total rapport between two men, one soul in two bodies, perfect friends sharing everything, unspoiled motivations, nobility of character, remains with me to this day, reignited by this show and the two characters. Before Sherlock I had really gotten away from any kind of fandom as I raised a daughter and remarried and took on a challenging job. I just didn't realize what was exploding out there on the internet for all aspects of fandom. What a fertile play ground! I remember the day I found all the Johnlock videos on Youtube. I think my jaw dropped just like it did for Star Trek! Some are just down right wonderful. Not everything relating to Sherlock online is my cup of tea and some of the fiction is just plain juvenile, but I admire those taking the creative step.

I've been thinking about another thing that's crucial to the appeal of the John and Sherlock relationship - at least for me. This just would not work for me with a couple of average Joe's with beer guts and tattoos - not matter how buddy buddy and in sync they are with each other. I need that physical beauty, and that beauty of spirit and character that lifts everything above the average. We're getting it full force in Sherlock! So it comes down to this for me. This John and this Sherlock are beautiful together and they are noble together and I want them to be together always, never out of each other's orbit for long. I like them lazing around in 221B, scattering books on the floor, looking over each other's shoulder to read a blog or email, looking over cups of coffee or tea at each other while they discuss the latest case. The only female I want interrupting this domestic tranquility is Mrs. Hudson. I don't picturing them walking down the hallway to the bedroom together - but it pleases me to think that the bedroom door may not be completely locked sometime in the future because, even in my hetero state, there's an exciting sweetness to that concept that just won't entirely leave my giddy female mind.

Wow - long winded true confessions. Enough! Night everyone! :-)

ancientsgate · June 25, 2012 2:29 am

KeepersPrice wrote:
I am having such a great time reading everyone's thoughts! So many things I would like to respond to - it's hard to know where to start. First to Ancientsgate (my neighbor to the north) and Whimsy - you two really know so much about fan fiction and the slash concept. Thanks for the explanations. ....The stories and fan art had me in some kind of thrall. They didn't actually "turn me on" (I'm just too damn hetero) but at the same time there was an element of excitement and interest I couldn't quite label..... I was a slash author before I even knew what the word meant :-)....This fascination with total rapport between two men, one soul in two bodies, perfect friends sharing everything, unspoiled motivations, nobility of character, remains with me to this day, reignited by this show and the two characters. ....Not everything relating to Sherlock online is my cup of tea and some of the fiction is just plain juvenile, but I admire those taking the creative step. i've been thinking about another thing that's crucial to the appeal of the John and Sherlock relationship - at least for me. ... it pleases me to think that the bedroom door may not be completely locked sometime in the future because, even in my hetero state, there's an exciting sweetness to that concept that just won't entirely leave my giddy female mind.....

So well said. I love sharing about slash with a receptive audience, lol, so it pleases me that you appreciated my comments.

Congrats on your story being accepted in that zine-- wow! There's quite a lot of bravery involved to not only write fan fiction but also to actually publish it and stick it out there, where people can read and send FB and criticize. It never really scared me, but I know loads of women who were trembling in their shoes, every time they hit the "send" button.

Most M/M slash fiction is written by straight females for straight females to read. There are some gay men writing M/M, but they're only a small number in comparison. Not sure who is writing or reading F/F slash, since it doesn't interest me and I've never read it. Your, as you say, "hetero state" shouldn't be the reason why you don't care for slash, IMO. I couldn't be more hetero if I tried (I don't think), but the idea of two attractive, smart men finding each other in this crazy world and making each other happy just does it for me. No idea why. It just does. I have no interest in ship--M/F romantic fiction-- it just does not float my boat, I imagine because it's so very (as Moriarty and Sherlock would say) booooooring and orrrrrrdinary, lol. Overdone, dime a dozen, and I cannot make myself care.

One of the things I find attractive about Sherlock and John is that their actors are not classic beauties of the male face and form-- one's all angular and thin and tall and has a curiously bowed mouth that I find fascinating, but no one would ever call him "handsome" in the classic sense, I don't believe. The other one looks like a working-class bloke-- shorter, more compact, a bit jowly, not at all pretty-- neither of them are. And to me, that's SO attractive, that they're ordinary-looking and extraordinary-looking, all at the same time! Again, this is just what floats my boat, big time.

Sentimental Pulse · June 25, 2012 11:01 am

ancientsgate wrote:
Congrats on your story being accepted in that zine-- wow! There's quite a lot of bravery involved to not only write fan fiction but also to actually publish it and stick it out there, where people can read and send FB and criticize. It never really scared me, but I know loads of women who were trembling in their shoes, every time they hit the "send" button.

Let me second this appreciation, ancientsgate and KeepersPrice. As a writer of fiction novels myself, I can only imagine what it must be like to write for an already established, rabid and unyielding fan base. Proper kudos for your entering into the Lion's Den, KP !

Shade's Shadow · June 25, 2012 8:01 pm

Just wanted to add an article with an interview with Steven Moffat. Think you guys would enjoy reading this where he talks about the relationship between John and Sherlock, as well as Irene, in Sherlock. No clue how to post a link here. Signed up just to link this. Sorry if it's incorrect.

ETA: Apparently have to post twice before adding a link. So ignore the next post. Ha.

Link on its way when I can...

Shade's Shadow · June 25, 2012 8:03 pm

And again....

Shade's Shadow · June 25, 2012 8:04 pm

and hopefully this will now work:

http://thinkprogress.org/alyssa/2012/05/07/479306/steven-moffat-on-sherlocks-return-the-holmes-watson-love-story-and-updating-the-first-supervillain/

Davina · June 25, 2012 8:18 pm

Wow! Great article and this also links with the 'discussions' we have been having about Molly Hooper and Irene and Sherlock. Moffat's comments may settle a few 'disputes'.

Glad you've joined us, by the way. Please stick around. We are generally a well-behaved lot .

Sherli Bakerst · June 25, 2012 10:20 pm

Very, very interesting article--thanks much for your perseverance in posting it. Come and play some more with us!

imane nikko · June 25, 2012 10:25 pm

It is a very interesting article. Thank you for posting it!

Davina wrote:
Wow! Great article and this also links with the 'discussions' we have been having about Molly Hooper and Irene and Sherlock. Moffat's comments may settle a few 'disputes'.

Wait, there's a Molly dispute? Where??

KeepersPrice · June 26, 2012 2:47 am

Thanks for posting the article. I enjoyed it very much. I knew Moffat has always acknowledged the John/Sherlock relationship as a "love story" which he has said in other articles. In this one it was lovely to hear him say that John is infatuated and fascinated with Sherlock and that Sherlock completely relies on him and is devoted to John. Moffat definitely dismisses the sexual angle, which I think many of us agree is the correct approach for this show; however, it does not dismiss the fact that many, many fans have picked up on a a certain element of homoerotisism lurking just beneath the surface in certain scenes. As Exhibit A I present to you the handcuffs and fence scene in Reichenbach . I think it might be Mark Gatiss we have to thank for those little touches but Moffat himself is quite savvy about what works and what sells. If those touches came from Gatiss, then Moffat has allowed them to remain in the script as a deliberate choice .

So, because this is a non-sexual love story, I think many of us are yearning to see if Sherlock and John can actually admit their love and devotion for each other in some sort of open way that allows them to still remain "manly" guys. It's why we're all waiting for the reunion scene, isn't it?

BrightBlueEyes · June 26, 2012 3:22 am

I think it's a story of a man who has been called a freak for so long that he just accepts that this is what he is. He doesn't care. He hasn't cared. Why bother really? Then along comes another man, plain, simple John. Who thinks Sherlock is amazing and brilliant, not a freak. Slowly we see Sherlock opening up, but only to John and eventually Mrs. Hudson. It's a story of intense friendship, and one man learning how not to be a high functioning sociopath. Which of course, makes me wonder, was he ever one to begin with?

I think the little bits everyone sees are actually nods to the Johnlock fandom. Both Ben and Martin have said they are amazed and flattered by it. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest to find out they were doing things like that on purpose...

tobeornot221b · June 26, 2012 3:45 am

KeepersPrice wrote:
Thanks for posting the article. I enjoyed it very much. I knew Moffat has always acknowledged the John/Sherlock relationship as a "love story" which he has said in other articles. In this one it was lovely to hear him say that John is infatuated and fascinated with Sherlock and that Sherlock completely relies on him and is devoted to John. Moffat definitely dismisses the sexual angle, which I think many of us agree is the correct approach for this show; however, it does not dismiss the fact that many, many fans have picked up on a a certain element of homoerotisism lurking just beneath the surface in certain scenes. As Exhibit A I present to you the handcuffs and fence scene in Reichenbach . I think it might be Mark Gatiss we have to thank for those little touches but Moffat himself is quite savvy about what works and what sells. If those touches came from Gatiss, then Moffat has allowed them to remain in the script as a deliberate choice .

So, because this is a non-sexual love story, I think many of us are yearning to see if Sherlock and John can actually admit their love and devotion for each other in some sort of open way that allows them to still remain "manly" guys. It's why we're all waiting for the reunion scene, isn't it?

Very well said, KP!
Just a reminder: TRF was written by Stephen Thompson. So he might be in on the "homoerotisism" thing as well...

ancientsgate · June 26, 2012 3:54 am

BrightBlueEyes wrote:
I think it's a story of a man who has been called a freak for so long that he just accepts that this is what he is. He doesn't care. He hasn't cared. Why bother really? Then along comes another man, plain, simple John. Who thinks Sherlock is amazing and brilliant, not a freak. Slowly we see Sherlock opening up, but only to John and eventually Mrs. Hudson. It's a story of intense friendship, and one man learning how not to be a high functioning sociopath. Which of course, makes me wonder, was he ever one to begin with?

I think the little bits everyone sees are actually nods to the Johnlock fandom. Both Ben and Martin have said they are amazed and flattered by it. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest to find out they were doing things like that on purpose...

So well said. Thanks for posting this. You made my day. Sherlock trusts John so completely, it's been a joy to see their evolving friendship over the 6 short glimpses we've been given of their life together. John gets to scold Sherlock, as per these examples, just from TRF-- "Intelligent yes, but let's give smart-ass a wide berth," and "Say thank you," and "Shhh!", and, urging him to put the deerslayer hat on, "Just get it over with," but more interesting than that, Sherlock lets him! And obeys him, if he can, even in spite of, "I can't just turn it on and off like a tap!" lololol They are more than cute together.

I of course like to fantasize about them being literally everything to each other, but even within the more-acceptable-to-the-general-public confines of the show, it's been fascinating to watch their growing friendship.

And you're right-- it's not without precedent that writers, directors and ex prods of a popular show that stars attractive males will deliberately "throw a bone" to the slashers in their audience. The shippers don't like it, but too darned bad. *g*