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March 16, 2014 11:12 am  #281


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Beautiful video based on Granada series again. It depicts the confrontation between Holmes and Moriarty at Reichenbach Falls, Sherlock′s escape from the death and Watson′s shock at discovering Sherlock′s good-bye note. The author of the video skillfully cut and connected various moments from „The Final Problem“ and „The Empty House“ to make the complicated event of Sherlock′s escape more comprehensible.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAN-wpYsffw
 
What I like about this version of the story (apart from it being shot at actual Reichenbach Falls, which is fantastic!) is the fact that we witness Sherlock′s reaction to John′s panic and grief here.
 
In the story, Holmes made the decision to fake his death without any previous planning, it instantaneously sprang into his mind at the end of the duel. He thought it necessary because Moriarty′s minions quite dangerously pursued him and made many attempts on his life. He knows now that he must escape quickly and discreetly.
 
Yet at 6:37, hearing John′s anguished cries, his first instinct is to reply and to let him know that he is alive – and he barely stops himself from crying out loud. He is then forced to watch John helplessly from his hiding-place and you can see how deeply it affect him. He looks contrite, guilty and very, very sorry, every emotion is mirrored in his face clearly. After that, at 7:30, he lays himself on the ground, still watching John and his expression subtly changes, emitting quiet gentleness, care and love. Jeremy Brett′s beautiful acting let us know all about Sherlock′ emotions in just a few seconds of actual action on screen.
 
That was one thing sorely missing from „The Empty Hearse“. We don′t know how Sherlock reacted seeing John in pieces after he pulled that fake suicide on him. I refuse to believe he just stoically detatched himself from the situation, seeing John in such grief. Yet we were never allowed to know how he felt after that. What a pity!


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

March 16, 2014 11:18 am  #282


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I think we can assume that Sherlock very myuch regretted what he had to put John through.
But he knew he had to get on with the job at hand...


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March 17, 2014 5:42 pm  #283


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

There are some great Johnlocky moments in the Granada series..and often many of the many other versions..and the canon moments have been faves of mine for a long time.Thing is in almost all we get a fond..admiring..easygoing...caring loving Watson.
I haven't really been able to get on board with the BBC version with the Johnlock...cos that Watson is missing.
Not meaning to be a bitch..but being one anyway ...the Benedict Sherlock in this vers. seems ..so very much out of this angsty angry dissaproving caretaker childminder and sometimes even unfriendly Watsons league..a total mesalliance for any romantic interpretations.
I hope next series we get bombarded with fond..admiring..supportive..friendly. .easygoing caring John because I want to be able to board the ship.

 

March 17, 2014 5:55 pm  #284


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Why?


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March 17, 2014 6:30 pm  #285


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

lil wrote:

There are some great Johnlocky moments in the Granada series..and often many of the many other versions..and the canon moments have been faves of mine for a long time.Thing is in almost all we get a fond..admiring..easygoing...caring loving Watson.
I haven't really been able to get on board with the BBC version with the Johnlock...cos that Watson is missing.
Not meaning to be a bitch..but being one anyway ...the Benedict Sherlock in this vers. seems ..so very much out of this angsty angry dissaproving caretaker childminder and sometimes even unfriendly Watsons league..a total mesalliance for any romantic interpretations.
I hope next series we get bombarded with fond..admiring..supportive..friendly. .easygoing caring John because I want to be able to board the ship.

Interesting. For me it is just the other way around. The Granada version does not work for me at all. I think Sherlock just needs this Watson who can be sarcastic and mocking but serves as his moral compass. Who keeps him right. Who tells him what is not good and when his timing is wrong.
This may be a darker version of the relationship for another age but I think their chemistry is wonderful and there are a lot of subtle hints that allow for more than friendship. 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

March 17, 2014 8:29 pm  #286


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

@Bes Another angle can only add interest for me..and the is it johnlocky moments are always fun. Especially some of the canon illustrations with them arm in arm @ in bed together..I also love the Wilde connection as an inspiration for Doyle.

@Susie I agree with you..bbc duo obvious chemistry and shared sense of humour and adventure and make great mates. But for me Johns so top gear matey the rom angle becomes more lol rom than possible tender/true rom.
Might be Sherlocks just too perfect/beautiful out of Johns league thing.
Bretts not my fave Sherlock and Granada series went a bit flat..but can find Jlock ambiguous moments.Unlike in say Livanov .

 

March 20, 2014 2:06 pm  #287


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I love BBC and Granada versions equally and I enjoy beautiful Johnlock moments in both of them. It′s quite nice that they are both different and introduce SH/JW relationship in their own, unique manner.
 
In BBC version both heroes are still full of youthful energy, they share a great camaraderie and adventurous spirit and they gladly throw themselves into dangerous situations, both having the penchant for risky and daring acts embedded in their blood. They don′t know each other for so long so there is still some element of surprise – both protagonist are just learning how to mix well together and as a result some conflict and disagreements arise between them from time to time, but such problems are always quelled by friendship and loyalty they express to each other. Their mutual relationship is very dynamic, because it′s still just forming itself. From „Johnlock point of view“ they resemble a pair of young, eager lovers.
 
Heroes of Granada version are 20 years older and so they are much more mature and calm and not so reckless anymore. They relationship is stable, their bond solidified over years and they know each other thoroughly, so there is no place for conflict between them anymore. From „Johnlock point of view“ they resemble an old married pair.  Watson of this version has no reason to be a moral compass for Holmes that much because his Holmes is much less daring and much more careful and tactful, mature gentleman now. Watson intimately knows every single quirk of his friend and it doesn′t alarm him anymore if Holmes trots out some of his tricks.
 
I slightly prefer the energetic dynamics of the BBC version, but I can envision that with time BBC heroes will be shifted towards harmonious relationship apparent in the Granada version.
 
I also don′t think John from BBC version is really that patronising towards Sherlock. The plot of the story called forth some scenes where he was angry, angsty or disapproving (because it wouldn′t be psychologically believable if he remained calm in them), but it doesn′t mean John is always like that. He still can be very supportive, loyal and friendly towards Sherlock.
 
Yes, BBC Sherlock is sometimes like the beautiful swan being imprisoned among chickens. The chickens who never before saw a swan think he is all wrong and they are trying to belittle him for his difference. But John is not like them. Althrough he has an opposite characteristics as his friend, he nicely balances Sherlock – they resemble two halves of a yin-yang sign. If Sherlock was only surrounded by like-minded gifted people there would be no one who could provoke his thinking, no one who could provide him with different point of view to some problems he solves as a detective. It′s important for him to have somebody as John in his life and John′s undying loyalty and warm friendship is a very nice bonus to all that.   
 


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

March 20, 2014 3:10 pm  #288


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Beautiful analysis, nakahara. I am not so familiar with the Granda series but I see your point of view. And Moftiss always stressed that they show them at an earlier age where especially Sherlock still has many things to learn about human nature. 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

March 25, 2014 12:47 pm  #289


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

NotYourHousekeeperDear wrote:

Well Mark and Steven could have written "a gay romp" but that wouldn't be very interesting would it?  Getting the two romantic leads actually together pretty much kills the chemistry of the unresolved sexual tension.  So I see your point, but not necessarily agree with you here.
One of the things I love about BBC Sherlock is that he never feels obliged like John to deny that he is gay.  He just is who is- and yes, I think that is progress!

Well, they could have written "a gay romp" or even a serious, respectful 'this is no big deal' gay relationship. Resolved sexual tension allows a relationship to progress and I always lose interest in the shows where they string it out for too long. In the end I don't care whether they do or they don't!

However, as you say above BBC Sherlock never denys that he's gay, maybe because he is gay? That's my take on it anyway from watching the series, not a romance or a bromance, but a gay man who's secretly in love with his straight best friend. Pretty much like in 'The Private LIfe of Sherlock Holmes' which Mark Gatiss so often mentions.  Not that I think they'll ever say that's what's intended, at least not until long after the series is finished, but that's my take on it. I could go into a lot of reasons why I think that IMHO, but this post would be three miles long.
 

 

March 25, 2014 12:54 pm  #290


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I agree with you in most points, Aytoun, though I am not sure if John is completely straight. There are some signs of his being attracted to Sherlock. And the fact that he so vehemently denies his being gay  might be a sort of "The lady doth protest too much". Surely I do not regard him as gay, he is clearly attracted by women. But he might be bi-sexual. 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

March 25, 2014 1:33 pm  #291


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

SusiGo wrote:

I agree with you in most points, Aytoun, though I am not sure if John is completely straight. There are some signs of his being attracted to Sherlock. And the fact that he so vehemently denies his being gay  might be a sort of "The lady doth protest too much". Surely I do not regard him as gay, he is clearly attracted by women. But he might be bi-sexual. 

Agreed, I could certainly see it that way as well.
 

 

March 25, 2014 5:40 pm  #292


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Well I don't see why the writers would choose to hide this from us and in  interviews he is often referred to as a ladies man.
They show John in relations with women, so why not men?


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March 25, 2014 8:50 pm  #293


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I agree with Susi- I think John is a closet bisexual. Look at his big man-crush on Major Sholto... and Mary's "Neither of us were the first you know..."


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"You can always tell a good Chinese place by examining the bottom third of the door handle"
 

March 25, 2014 9:32 pm  #294


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Another point - John is never successful in his relationships with women. He dates one woman after the other, but never manages to keep one. I admit living with Sherlock is not really conducive to a relationship. But what about Mary (and, no, I am not going to start THIS discussion again)?

I just remembered the scene in the lab after John found Sherlock in the drug den. Billy deduces John is keeping his shirts ready to pack. Of course he is cycling to work but when I watched the scene for the first time - after having seen John dream of Sherlock and getting totally angry when the neighbour was is front of the door instead, plus his quarrel with Mary - my first thought was: he is ready to leave. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

March 25, 2014 9:51 pm  #295


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

He may have been, but he's not now.


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March 25, 2014 9:54 pm  #296


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Now? You mean after HLV? We will see. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

March 26, 2014 5:25 am  #297


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

SusiGo wrote:

I just remembered the scene in the lab after John found Sherlock in the drug den. Billy deduces John is keeping his shirts ready to pack. Of course he is cycling to work but when I watched the scene for the first time - after having seen John dream of Sherlock and getting totally angry when the neighbour was is front of the door instead, plus his quarrel with Mary - my first thought was: he is ready to leave. 

Yes, and Mary's "You can't go. I'm pregnant" seems to be what prevents him from doing so.
 


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John: "Have you spoken to Mycroft, Molly, uh, anyone?"
Mrs Hudson: "They don’t matter. You do."


I BELIEVE IN SERIES 5!




                                                                                                                  
 

March 26, 2014 5:47 am  #298


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

besleybean wrote:

Well I don't see why the writers would choose to hide this from us and in  interviews he is often referred to as a ladies man.

But seriously, he is not, is he? Like Susi said, he is not really successful when it comes to his relationships - his only constant relationship (and I mean this in the most neutral way possible) is Sherlock. So even if he is referred to as a ladies man in interviews, I personally never would have used this term for John.
 


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

March 26, 2014 6:54 am  #299


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I say again: why the comspiracy theory?
Why do people think Mark and Steven are frighhtened to say they've written a bisexual character(and I'm sorry, I have to mute a snigger here...are peoeple realzing they're losig the battle on the 'gay' thing?)?
Also, why not just believe what the writers and actors have said:  they have no issue wirh people seeing Johnlock if they want to, but that is not what they wrote or how it's acted.
Enhoy the 'eye sex'(eye roll) all you like. But you are never going to see Johnlock in the show...but fine, enjoy the fantasy.
Oh and I hate thet term ' ladies man'. too....but that is actually what the weiters have said- repeatedly.
The ultimate proof being in John's marriage.
Which according to this thread, on John's part- is a total sham

Last edited by besleybean (March 26, 2014 6:55 am)


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March 26, 2014 7:11 am  #300


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I said this before (in different contexts as well) and I'm happy to say it again: It's really not all that important to me as a viewer what the writers or actors of a show have to say about what is real and what isn't. Of course they have their opinion about it - but I don't have to share those opinions. Of course I do accept whatever they have to say about their intentions, but in the end I see and observe for myself. Lots of viewers don't even read interviews or articles and just go with what they see on screen. And that's just what I try to do as well.
And of course everyone sees something else. You see no 'eye sex'? Fine. Someone else sees it? Also fine.


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

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