BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » What did Sherlock really ask of Molly?

veecee · June 21, 2012 8:17 pm

Sherlock Holmes said: The question is...when Sherlock says "you do count, you've always counted and I've always trusted you," was he being genuine or just saying what she needed to hear so he could get his own way??? The jury's out...I'm not sure.

My question, too. He does need her, of course, but does he play her in the way he asks for help? He did it before when he complimented her hair.

KeepersPrice · June 21, 2012 8:51 pm

veecee wrote:
Sherlock Holmes said: The question is...when Sherlock says "you do count, you've always counted and I've always trusted you," was he being genuine or just saying what she needed to hear so he could get his own way??? The jury's out...I'm not sure.

My question, too. He does need her, of course, but does he play her in the way he asks for help? He did it before when he complimented her hair.

Sherlock does know how to "seduce" people (and I don't mean in a sexual sense) into getting what he wants from them. When he said the "you do count" lines to Molly I thought they were spoken genuinely - until I went back and watched the episode where he compliments her hair - playing on her emotions like a poor little fish. Then I had my doubts. However, the hair compliment was for a comedic effect because we, the audience, knew exactly what he was trying to do. Sherlock is still a master manipulator and always will be, but there's sincerity in his lines in Reichenbach I think. I'd like to believe that anyway.

And yes Kazza, if I've been sucked in, then so be it. I love all aspects of this show, the excitement of the plots, the comedy aspects, the "romance" (and again I don't mean in a sexual sense), the deductions, the nods to the canon, the speculation of what's going to happen next and to whom. Moftiss has done their job on me and manipulated me to perfection. If they want to keep selling it that way, then I'll keep buying it.

JaneCo · June 21, 2012 11:09 pm

You are right KeepersPrice. Watch Sherlock's expressions when only we can see them. The rooftop scene when Moriarty walks between Sherlock and the camera; the scene in the canteen when Molly turns away from him and again before he turns to face her in the lab in TRF. All those instances are purely for the audience. There is no reason to show them other than for our benefit. We are allowed to see just a glimpse of his motivation at that point in the story.

What keeps me coming back is detail and the cleverness of it all.

hypergreenfrog · June 22, 2012 11:55 am

kazza474 wrote:
Some points of rebuttal so guys can jump up & down at me again.

3. Of course Moftiss write some of the lines to evoke feelings of 'romance/touchy feely bits' etc, because frankly 'sex sells' and there will always be a certain percentage of any audience that wants sex or romance in the most inopportune moments of any show. There are mind twisting stories, devious sub plots , underlying meanings for the hard core Sherlockians & lovers of mystery; there are straight out scenes with a good storyline and then there's the token 'love interest' thread for those who wish "love, happiness & mung beans" in all things they watch. We in Australia call it 'getting sucked in' ; it works & it helps sell the show. I wonder how long that will last though?

[...]
Molly can't decide for herself whether to wear lipstick or not without words from Sherlock, how to wear her hair, which meat to eat at lunchtime & yet he is going to trust her with his life?
Yeah, right.

Dear Kazza,
We hear you, loud and clear. You don't like romance in your TV detective. Fair enough, I don't like chocolate ice cream. Guess we both should live with the fact that many people out there do things we cannot fathom.

But you know what is also a popular misconception?
That you can like a TV show (or anything else, to that matter) for the wrong reasons.
People who like to watch "Sherlock" because they think that Sherlock & Watson look good together, or because they like the theme tune, or they just enjoy the British humour of the show, ALL have just as much right to call themselves fans and indulge in the fandom and everything that comes with it as someone like you (who enjoyes watching Benedict Cumerbatch take off his scarf).
Liking something is a state of mind, NOT an achievement, least of all an intellectual one.You don't have to understand other fans' motivations (there are many on this forum alone that I don't understand), but you have no right or reason to belittle them, or put them down by using derogatory phrases like "sex sells" (not a cliché at all, that?) or "romance in the most inopportune moments".
There is no such thing as a lesser fan, "lovers of mystery" are as much or as little fans as "lovers of scarves".

I remember seeing an interview with Bill Nighy a while back, where he talks about how we have invented insulting, derogatory terms such as "feel-good-movie" or "comfort food" for things that are actually great, but for certain reasons we are told to be ashamed of liking them. The same is true about the bits of romance in Sherlock. You personally don't like them, and I (and, as far as I can see, everyone else round here) accept that. But don't expect for one moment that I will respect you because of that, any more than I respect the Johnlockers (I DO respect you all, but as persons, and for your witty comments, and your detailed observations, not for liking something I like).
You see underlying meaning in terms of hints to other of ACD's novels, they see underlying meaning in terms of emotional development. Ultimately, you are both sitting in front of your TV, watching a show. Nothing to be ashamed of, nothing to be proud of.

Finally, a word or two about Molly. Yes, the weak woman turning strong is a cliche, definitely. But this is not such a case, is it? Nobody is suggesting that Molly suddenly turns into Supermolly. All she has to do is use her skills as a scientist and employee of the hospital,something she could do all along. Also, I doubt she will get any time in lime light in this story (as would be the case to make it a Hollywood type Happy Ending), it wil all be down to the genius Sherlock Holmes - and rightly so!

Last edited by hypergreenfrog (June 22, 2012 11:56 am)

kazza474 · June 22, 2012 12:09 pm

You're a pretty touchy frog huh?
So an actor in an interview says those terms are derogatory & you take that as gospel and use it as a reason to tell me I am belittling & putting people down by using those terms? Well when that actor is proven to be right, we'll talk. Inn the meantime, singling me out for such comments, to me is an personal attack on the way I express myself.
I am starting to understand a large majority here have decided everyone has their right to express an opinion but no-one has the right to debate or refute that reason.
I've given enough opinions here; I will stick to just posting information from now on. That should stop me from belittling anyone again.
Bad me.

hypergreenfrog · June 22, 2012 1:18 pm

I guess I must be, feeling more like sad, purple frog right now...

No, seriously...it's always difficult to get one's opinion accross in writing, especially when talking to people you have never actually met. I didn't intend to "single you out", I would have said the same to anyone else. Feel free to watch me here or anywhere else (I use this username on every forum or internet site I post on), and you will see that I don't attack individuals for the fun of it, and if it felt like that to you, then I apologize. Please stop swinging that scarf at me, I'll fall off my water lilly!

The point I was trying to make (unsuccessfully?) has nothing to do with Bill Knighy, I just wanted to give the correct source. I do think that actors can be quite good at phrasing opinions, actually, because they are trained to speak in a clear and concise way, and used to publicly answering personal questions. I am personally neither trained nor particularly gifted in expressing my thoughts (plus, despite considering myself bilingual, my English vocabulary is not what I would like it to be), and therefore I often choose to quote or paraphrase others instead. I will try to explain the matter in my own words now, read at your own peril:
1.
Terms like "comfort food" or "feel-good movie" refer to things we like but shouldn't, because they have little value. Romance or Comedy in films and TV are often put in the same category. I consider this a form of snobbery, as it's a concept based on the ancient theory that if something is liked by many, it is worth less than if it is only liked by a few. Hence my example of chocolate ice cream - it's a simple question of taste, not a sign of knowledge or intelligence.

2.
While you reacted with sarcasm and strong exaggerations to several posts referring to any type of emotion in the series (e.g. the question of jealousy as a common theme in "Scandal", or Sherlock literally dragging Watson into his world in "Pink", neither of which indicated any romantic link between the two), I did not feel those posts were belittling anyone, on the contrary, I felt you simply enjoyed debating, and maybe deliberately provoking a certain reaction from forum members you knew would disagree. You made it clear that this was simply your opinion rather than absolute fact, and I happily joined into the discussion. I hope to do so again in the future.

3.
The only thing I took offense to was the particular post I quoted earlier. I understand now that you did not write it with the intent of putting others down, but if you read it again, maybe you can see my point at least at little?
You clearly distinguish between fans like yourself and those who need romance to get "sucked in", because they are too stupid to get the real deeper meaning and subplots. Deliberate or not, it came across as derogatory.

Maybe we are both a little like Sherlock, in that we believe to be honest and even kind in our behaviour, when we come across as aloof and rude?

Smoggy_London_Air · June 22, 2012 5:20 pm

I don't think that Molly is emotionally weak or unstable except where it comes to Sherlock. Like she says in Scandal, "After all, I do post-morterms." You can't really be the kind of person who does autopsies and processes bodies if you can't emotionally detach yourself to some degree. To be sure, she definitely does have a soft spot for Sherlock, but I think that it's really an indication of how strong she is, not how weak she is, that she acknowledges that he's a total asshole and definitely not good for her.

I think that you can be strong and intelligent and still maybe have a few weak spots, because that's how real life is. Everybody's got weaknesses. I mean, according to Sherlockology, Molly is a pathologist, and if that's true that means that she went through medical school. She's intelligent. She's not a genius like Sherlock, but I would say she's smarter than the average person. Romantically, though, she has a weakness, especially for smart blokes, but there's no shame in that.

Molly tells us that he dad is dead and also that he knew he was dying. So he was probably sick. Cancer, Multiple Sclerosis, you name it. Clearly it wasn't some kind of accident. Depending on how old Molly was when this happened, it probably affected her quite a bit. She knew her father was dying. He knew that he was dying, but there was nothing anybody could do about it. You can count on it being a very painful experience. So if we're digging deep into the character, again, depending on how old she was, she probably has deep-seated abandonment issues, particularly with men. To some degree I think this accounts for everything that happens with Jim and Sherlock.

I don't really see Molly as dumb and clueless, because, I regret to say, I've been in her place. Not because the person was more intelligent than I was, like in this instance but because they were more, quote unquote, "popular" than I was. Unattainability can be attractive, especially in fiction, no matter what form it takes. Because this show is called Sherlock and not Molly, we don't see Molly in any setting other than Sherlock's presence, so we don't know what she might be like when he's not around. If I had a dollar for every time I'd read a fifty-cent paperback where the heroine lusts after some guy who turns out to be a douche, I'd buy myself a Belstaff coat. Bonus points if she acts totally out of character when he's around. It happens, particularly in fiction.

Admittedly, Molly is definitely not perfect, even if she has excuses for her behavior. You like Sherlock? Well, try using that big brain of yours to impress him, instead of just doing what he says and acting subservient. You realized that he's never going to like you? Forget about him! (And she did. She just went out with Jim from IT instead.) She does display weak behavior and lack of willpower. She needs to be headstrong and make her own decisions instead of being there at Sherlock's beck and call. Hopefully we'll see character development along these lines in Series 3. She's Sherlock's lab wonder girl, so I don't think its incredibly far fetched that he would call on her. If nothing else, she's showed that she can follow his instructions to the letter.

veecee · June 22, 2012 6:13 pm

kazza474 and hypergreenfrog - Please shake hands and make up.

Someone else pointed out that Molly at least calls Sherlock out on his bad behavior toward her. I think she does it regarding his comments about Jim and also at the Christmas party.

Sherlock Holmes · June 24, 2012 6:29 pm

Yes, she does occasionally stand up for herself. She isn't completely weak, she just has "a weak spot" for Sherlock. EDIT: Don't we all?

Last edited by Sherlock Holmes (June 24, 2012 6:29 pm)

Smoggy_London_Air · June 25, 2012 4:31 am

@Sherli The answer to that is an emphatic YES. From "I have discovered a reagent that is precipitated by hemoglobin and nothing else." to "How fresh?"

ancientsgate · July 17, 2012 8:08 pm

hypergreenfrog wrote:
Liking something is a state of mind, NOT an achievement, least of all an intellectual one.You don't have to understand other fans' motivations (there are many on this forum alone that I don't understand), but you have no right or reason to belittle them, or put them down by using derogatory phrases like "sex sells" (not a cliché at all, that?) or "romance in the most inopportune moments".
There is no such thing as a lesser fan, "lovers of mystery" are as much or as little fans as "lovers of scarves".
I remember seeing an interview with Bill Nighy a while back, where he talks about how we have invented insulting, derogatory terms such as "feel-good-movie" or "comfort food" for things that are actually great, but for certain reasons we are told to be ashamed of liking them. The same is true about the bits of romance in Sherlock. You personally don't like them, and I (and, as far as I can see, everyone else round here) accept that. But don't expect for one moment that I will respect you because of that, any more than I respect the Johnlockers (I DO respect you all, but as persons, and for your witty comments, and your detailed observations, not for liking something I like).
You see underlying meaning in terms of hints to other of ACD's novels, they see underlying meaning in terms of emotional development. Ultimately, you are both sitting in front of your TV, watching a show. Nothing to be ashamed of, nothing to be proud of.

The internet has allowed us to venture out of our own living rooms, away from our own TVs, to seek out other [hopefully] like-minded people to chat and discuss the show with. This is both a blessing and a curse, because, as you say, we all might say, "I love that BBC Sherlock show, have you seen it?" to a friend, but when we start comparing notes with someone else who likes it, we'll often be wicked surprised to see that wow, she liked XYZ and I don't care about that, but ABC leaves me squirming in my seat and squeeeeeing!

It takes all kinds. Hey, if the scarf thing turns someone on, they should go for it. I myself get off on the coat, which is absolutely thud-worthy on that slim model's body that BC owns. And the way he strides around in it, cheeks all reddened with the cold, hair wind-blown and curly-messy. Good lord, sex in a greatcoat.

And of course I'm a dyed-in-the-wool Sherlock/John slasher, fully realizing that I will never see any evidence of my beloved pairing in the show, which is fine. I refuse to use the silly Johnlock word; I think it's stupid, although I bow to the fandom's will on that-- again, each to his own. In my own little mind, they belong together in every sense of the word and always will. I don't think that makes me less-than, and I don't think it means I've sold out. I still like the action/adventure, the mystery, the humor, Sherlock's snarky mouth, all of it. But he and John? A match made in heaven, frosting on the yummy cake when I sit down to watch the show. Just my take on that.

As for Molly, someone said she needed Sherlock to tell her how to dress and about the lipstick and how much she should weigh and who she should date, therefore she had nothing to give him in his hour of need. Baloney. She doesn't "need" Sherlock and his observations to guide her in life-- she just puts up with them. And what she gives him is acceptance, Steady Eddie always-being-there-for-him-when-he's-ready, and an uncanny ability to see the man behind the emotional walls and beneath the snarky comments. She's a precious gift in Sherlock's life, something he is only peripherally aware of, but just because he doesn't open up his stupid eyeballs and see it and acknowledge it (except for that brief moment in TRF), it doesn't mean that her devotion to him and effectiveness in any crisis she's called upon to help with isn't real.

besleybean · October 6, 2012 8:37 pm

A body, blood, a phone call? Dunno. But he's about to 'die' and she works in a morgue.

sherlockian111 · January 23, 2013 9:05 am

I think she helped him in some way, but I don't think he asked her to look after John, he might say "have you seen John recently?...how was he?" but that's about it I think. Also, he wouldn't want to draw attention to Molly, if she does indeed know about him being still alive, he wouldn't John to be suspicious of her. Let's say Molly didn't know that Sherlock was still alive, she would be pretty upset(and would definitely have gone to his funeral and visited his grave stone) but because she knows that he IS still alive, she's not upset, and I don't think she's that good an actor, so it's best to leave her in the background and not draw attention to her

Mnemosyne · January 23, 2013 12:08 pm

Oh god my mind is melting, I shouldn't read forums at work. Is it the general consensus that Molly is privy to Sherlock's plan in its entirety? Or is there a chance that she's as shocked as anyone when he goes for a long walk off a short roof?

It is also not unheard of, in that case, for two people grieving over the same thing to... Erm... Get together.
To be honest I hadn't even considered the angle that Sherlock was asking Molly to take care of John until this thread (consider my horizons boradened). I had always thought that she was a crucial part of his master plan, his fall.

To me this depends entirely on how long Sherlock has been planning this.
Oh god let S3 come quickly... We're starting to get more than restless here. Hurry Moftiss before someone finds a harpoon.

PS sorry about italics... IPad is being a bumbag.

PPS I think Molly's character is intellectually clever but not emotionally savvy. Sherlock knows he is using her but always has it down to necessity rather than out of malice... The only time he truly humiliates her was at the Christmas get together, then he said sorry. There has been no hint of real romantic feelings. The scene where he says she counts made me narrow my eyes and think 'hmm, not sure if scared or being manipulative'.

besleybean · January 23, 2013 4:57 pm

I think Sherlock spoke out of considering Molly a real friend.

Mattlocked · January 23, 2013 5:12 pm

Me, too. I'm sure I saw/heard a difference between him trying to manipulate her in the lunchroom and "You do count." in the lab.
And of course the Christmas-scene was honest.
Also when she asked him:"What do you need?" - his answer "You".... I think I listened to this little piece ten times. His voice almost broke and I didn't hear any "business" or manipulating in this one word.

Last edited by Mattlocked (January 23, 2013 5:14 pm)

kornmuhme · July 5, 2015 9:39 pm

ancientsgate wrote:
As for Molly, someone said she needed Sherlock to tell her how to dress and about the lipstick and how much she should weigh and who she should date, therefore she had nothing to give him in his hour of need. Baloney. She doesn't "need" Sherlock and his observations to guide her in life-- she just puts up with them. And what she gives him is acceptance, Steady Eddie always-being-there-for-him-when-he's-ready, and an uncanny ability to see the man behind the emotional walls and beneath the snarky comments. She's a precious gift in Sherlock's life, something he is only peripherally aware of, but just because he doesn't open up his stupid eyeballs and see it and acknowledge it (except for that brief moment in TRF), it doesn't mean that her devotion to him and effectiveness in any crisis she's called upon to help with isn't real.

Thank you for these words! They're exactly what I need at the moment :-). Have just finished TRB and I'm COMPLETELY overwhelmed by this episode!!! And I especially liked this Sherlock/Molly scene. Your explanations express what I'm thinking of!!

ancientsgate · July 6, 2015 2:34 am

kornmuhme wrote:
ancientsgate wrote:
As for Molly, someone said she needed Sherlock to tell her how to dress and about the lipstick and how much she should weigh and who she should date, therefore she had nothing to give him in his hour of need. Baloney. She doesn't "need" Sherlock and his observations to guide her in life-- she just puts up with them. And what she gives him is acceptance, Steady Eddie always-being-there-for-him-when-he's-ready, and an uncanny ability to see the man behind the emotional walls and beneath the snarky comments. She's a precious gift in Sherlock's life, something he is only peripherally aware of, but just because he doesn't open up his stupid eyeballs and see it and acknowledge it (except for that brief moment in TRF), it doesn't mean that her devotion to him and effectiveness in any crisis she's called upon to help with isn't real.
Thank you for these words! They're exactly what I need at the moment :-). Have just finished TRB and I'm COMPLETELY overwhelmed by this episode!!! And I especially liked this Sherlock/Molly scene. Your explanations express what I'm thinking of!!

Oh goodness, I wrote that 3 years ago, and I can't even remember writing it! But I'm glad it helped you somehow. I love hearing about new Sherlock fans just seeing these episodes for the first time. Enjoy.

kornmuhme · July 6, 2015 5:16 pm

Well, yeah, I seem one of the last people to watch the show ... :-/ ... But I'm very glad that I didn't have to wait ... how much? 2 years? ... to watch series 3 after THIS AMAZING cliffhanger!!!! I'd have run mad!!