I just wanted to say that John′s feelings for Sherlock can be stronger than his feelings for Mary even if he′s married to her. So even if „John has every right to concentrate on his marriage and child first and foremost and on his best friend on second place“ that does not neccessarily mean he absolutely must concentrate on Mary first and on Sherlock second place.
 
And I still disagree with your opinion that „John has every right to be angry with Sherlock“. Why should he? What reason does he have for such anger? Sherlock hasn′t done a thing to harm him or Mary and was incredibly supportive and helpful to them both, to the point of self-sacrifice. John had to realise after their argument at Baker Street that Sherlock tries to protect their marriage at all cost. So once again, why should he be angry?
 

I don't think anger is something that has a lot to do with reason. It's very much driven by the most primitive instincts and governed by parts of the brain that are quite remved from rational thought. I think there is plenty going on to make John angry. It may not be strictly speaking justified when looking at it from a position of a detached observer but I can understand why he reacts the way he does.

Aside from beating Sherlock up after he first finds out thar Sherlock isn't dead I don't think much of John's enger is directed at him. The way at see the scene of the domestic John is having a bit of a meltdown and attacking everyone around him. I don't this is a sign of him being truly angry with Sherlock. He may actualy be very angry with himself and he projects it at other people. I don't think he was able at that moment in time to weigh up how much he ows Sherlock. Him not being able to see what's going on is not a sign of him being dense but so overwhelmed by the emotion that he lost ability to thing logically. Along the same lines he has forgotten every basic principle of doctoring and hasn't realised that Sherlock was unwell until he collapsed in front of his eyes.

nakahara wrote:

That would only be right if we had some normal, statistically inconsequent people in our story. But Mary and Sherlock are hardly an ordinary pregnant wife and an ordinary best friend.
 
Lets sum up all the good things Sherlock has done for John and Mary:

• he organised their marriage perfectly althrough he hates marriages with passion and it was a live torture for him,
• he saved the life of John′s former commander, who was important to John,
• after he was shot by Mary he quickly told John that he married an assassin as was his duty and proved himself to be a sincere and a caring friend,
• but after that he also lied to John about the danger and the cause of his injury in true Monty Pyton Style („it′s just a fleshwound!“), persuading him that Mary had just performed surgery on him – all for the sake of saving John′s shitty marriage and Mary′s skin, once again proving himself to be caring and protective of their relationship,
• he took some notebook with state secrets and offered it to CAM so as to save Mary′s life and John′s family again,
• when that method proved fruitless he shot CAM to silence him on behalf of Mary′s security, but he has done that in front of witnesses, so that John wouldn′t be implied as an accomplice or the actual shooter,
• he deliberately forgots that Mary shot him and is civil and friendly to her even on the tarmac, after he sacrificed everything for John′s and her happiness and is about to pay for it, with his own life.

 
Now, it would be really decent for John to care about Sherlock more than Mary after all that sacrifice, wouldn′t it? The fact that Mary is female and got herself pregnant does not absolute her of her former crimes, her hurting of Sherlock and her constant lies that finally led to Sherlock′s sacrifice.
 
John has no reason nor right to be angry at Sherlock after all this. If John has any reason to be angry, it′s to be angry with himself and his wife rather than his best friend.
 

I think you are exactly right. But this goes to show that John has become quite adept at either ignoring what he doesn't wish to see-- or automatically blaming Sherlock, or displacing his anger with Mary (or himself) --onto Sherlock. Porr Sherlock can't win, here. 

 

Swanpride wrote:

Sherlock's more annoying habits aside, he locked John in a lab and terrified him to test a theory, made him believe that he was dead for two years and apparently drugged him regularly (so that John missed a whole Wednesday once). That's not exactly the behaviour of a good friend. It's no wonder that John has a breaking point.

Actually, the good friend who took an almost broken and badly-functioning man into his life was Sherlock; I suggest that anyone watching the first two seasons would realise that whilst Sherlock was and is far from perfect he has tried to help others. John's psychosomatic limp represents, in some ways, his inability to accept that some faults lie in himself; for unknown reasons he has chosen to leave the army, but he doesn't actually need his stick.

And, lets face it, John's callous response to Sherlock's terrifying experience with the same drug suggests that he's not exactly a model of sweetness and light, supporting a friend; he didn't believe that the drug would have that effect, so Sherlock tried it out on him. John deliberately spiked Sherlock's drinks on the stag night; for someone who values self control as much as Sherlock does that's a pretty mean thing to do, as well.

As for Sherlock's wedding speech, we know what he was trying to do; prevent a murder. I have no doubt that he was ad libbing frantically whilst he was trying to prevent a murder, of a man John deeply and sincerely admires, just as he was ad libbing frantically on the roof at Barts when Moriarty killed himself, trying to prevent the murders of John, Lestrade and Mrs Hudson.

I see nothing admirable about John's refusal to accept that his own flaws were the reason why Sherlock and Mycroft had to exclude him from the Reichenbach plan; someone who refuses to admit that he has any flaws is not someone who can be relied on when there are a lot of lives at stake. For that matter, the writers deliberately showed his hypocrisy when we learn that Mrs Hudson didn't even know whether John was alive; not even a phone call. Short of hitting us over the head with a clue by four Moftiss couldn't have made it any clearer.

It was Lestrade in the short film trying to help people keep going; Lestrade who acted kindly, and Lestrade who welcomed Sherlock back with a few well chosen insults.

If John had ever bothered to even ask what Sherlock had been doing, he would have realised just how dangerous and stressful it must have been for Sherlock tracking and taking down a world wide criminal network, but John doesn't ask because John apparently doesn't care. The only thing which John seems to care about is John's hurt feelings, and this is never an appealing characteristic at the best of times.

So no, I don't give him a pass for beating up Sherlock, fresh from the Serbian torturer, and I don't give him a pass on him threatening him in Baker St. As belis has noted his anger was omni directed at that point, but again the writers gave him the 'one more' line just as Mary had before she shot him. That isn't a coincidence; it's intended to drive home the fact that John and Mary are doing the same thing to Sherlock...

And on that less than cheerful note I must go since I have another visit to the Royal London trauma clinic tomorrow morning, but I am cheered by the fact that belis thinks he has a good chance of responding well to specific therapies
 

Swanpride wrote:

@RavenMorganLeigh ????? This has nothing to do with Mary at all. (and I honestly don't understand why you are bringing her up in a discussion which isn't about her at all, but about John and Sherlock). I just don't get the idea that John has somehow be eternal grateful for what Sherlock did and therefore has to be always nice and perfect. Their friendship is a two-way street. Sherlock is a really good friend. But he can also act like a dick. John is a really good friend. But sometimes everything is just too much.

And what Sherlock did to him during the two years WAS terrible. If John had known about the Serbian torturer he might have reacted differently...but if my best friend would suddenly turn up after two years and his explanation for faking his suicide right before my eyes would be "Isn't this a great joke", "I couldn't trust you to keep quiet, but I told around 25 other people" and "By the way, I'm now back because I need your help"....I would punch him, too. And I am really not a violent person.

The reason I brought it up, is because there's this "tit-for-tat"  reasoning going on here. Or a , Mary deserves sympathy and good will, because Sherlock has done so much worse, " sort of rationale-- and it doesn't add up. 

But, as usual, I could be on crack ! ;-)

besleybean wrote:

For me, it's not even that.
It's the fact that Sherlock and John have forguven her, so we should.

I am somewhat dubious as to whether Sherlock has forgiven her, and even more dubious that Mary has forgiven Sherlock. Sherlock may not care, in a sort of 'it's all water under the bridge' way, but that is not forgiveness. He didn't trust her in the same house with his parents and brother unconscious; he made sure that she was unable to harm them by drugging her.

However, since this thread is about John I shall stick to the fact that I'm not convinced that John has forgiven her; we had his apparently sentimental tossing of the memory stick in the fire, but we also had him telling her that he was still really, really angry with her.

Having read somewhat further along the lines belis suggested, it does seem to me that John has some work to do in getting to grips with his anger and his impulses towards violence; with Sherlock prior to the Reichenbach plan John channelled those constructively. In Season 3, not so much. I should very much like to see a happy John, but I very much doubt that Mary is going to assist in that process.

Even John in his most extreme 'I don't want to know' mode is incapable of putting a blindfold on the rest of the world, and the rest of the world is likely to force him to know whether he likes it or not. Somehow, I doubt that Mycroft is going to have any sympathy for someone emulating an ostrich and thereby endangering his brother; I doubt that Lestrade, Mrs Hudson and Molly would 'forgive' Mary either. They are not, after all, idiots
 

besleybean wrote:

Mrs Hudson't face is rather telling, when she is overhearing some of what is said...

Yes; one wonders how long it took for that information to spread amongst those who are most indebted to Sherlock. For a guy who thinks he hasn't got any friends he's racked up quite a few...
 

Fillyjonk wrote:

I love the idea of thinking about what the other characters who love Sherlock would counsel John about Mary.

John: Say, Molly - Mary and I are going to grab a bite to eat. Would you like to come with us?
Molly: Um... er... no, thanks. SHE SHOT SHERLOCK."

John: Mrs. Hudson, Mary and I are having tea with Sherlock. Would you care to join us?
Mrs. Hudson: No, dear. I love Sherlock, and she killed him. I really can't see how I would ever take tea with her.

Fillyjonk

I swear, I keep thinking up this scene where Molly, having found out what really happened, slaps the heck out of Mary, with a "How DARE you hurt someone who's never done anything but try to help you!" 

Hmmmm... I think I will....

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

Fillyjonk wrote:

I love the idea of thinking about what the other characters who love Sherlock would counsel John about Mary.

John: Say, Molly - Mary and I are going to grab a bite to eat. Would you like to come with us?
Molly: Um... er... no, thanks. SHE SHOT SHERLOCK."

John: Mrs. Hudson, Mary and I are having tea with Sherlock. Would you care to join us?
Mrs. Hudson: No, dear. I love Sherlock, and she killed him. I really can't see how I would ever take tea with her.

Fillyjonk

I swear, I keep thinking up this scene where Molly, having found out what really happened, slaps the heck out of Mary, with a "How DARE you hurt someone who's never done anything but try to help you!" 

Hmmmm... I think I will....

I wanted John to give Mary something like this...he WAS angry, but his anger focused more on her lying to him about her past (and he acted like he blamed Sherlock for that!)
 

Well said! This was not John's finest hour; I'm sure that belis can provide us with help as to what was going on inside his head, but it certainly didn't win any prizes in the hero stakes. And John is supposed to be a hero...
 

I think the reason the conversation went back to Mary is that we also were talking about whether John was prioritizing who was more important in his life; Sherlock or Mary--  and that John's anger with Mary has been directed at Sherlock. She's a big reason for anger and stress in John's life; why woulnd't she part of the conversation?