Zatoichi wrote:

@nakahara: But she is disillusioned, maybe she doesn´t know Sherlock well enough to really take his offer to help while she is pointing a gun at him serious? Maybe she just thinks he tries to distract and disarm her, immediately to call John.. it´s what most people would do.

(I can´t believe I find myself defending Mary again.. why does that keep happening..? ^^)

 
I think she is very good at reading people and she studied Sherlock for some time before that CAM burglary happened, so she should be able to recognise that Sherlock is sincere. He looks quite differently when he is shamming something – she experienced that in TEH firsthand, she could tell the difference.
 

Last edited by nakahara (March 4, 2014 1:00 pm)

@Willow yes exactly so...and while Sherlock may let sentiment affect his decisions we sure as hell know Mycroft won't.
Mary and John mean nothing to him...that he chose to exercise..! Rather than attend the wedding...and warn Sherlock away from Mary and sentiment is not just funny but very telling.   
Mycroft and now Sherlock know what was on the memory stick and Mycroft has planned accordingly no doubt.
Once the baby card has been played Marys deck is empty, and the temporary truce is over.
Likely she will get some kind of redemptive ending/exit though..considering the wider themes.

Swanpride wrote:

Moffat likes things to be dramatic. It's really as simple as that.

And Mary's belief that John would break if he knew the truth is not that far fetched. He nearly does.

Hindsight is 20/20. We now know that John was able to deal with it. But what if he HAD broken upon learning the news? If this had been just a little bit too much for his already battered mind?

And I think it is very telling that Mary says "It would break him" and not "It would anger him" or "he wouldn't understand".

Errr... following that logic-- that he'd break, finding out the truth-- that kind of proves the point that she cares more about HERSELF, not John. Because KILLING Sherlock would have broken him, too. Did she really think that John wouldn't be affected by this? 

Oh, wait-- probably not. One of the problems with a psychopath or even a narcissist is that they really see themselves as the center of the universe. So, of COURSE, John might be hurt, but *she's* more important. Isn't she? Isn't she?  That would probably be her thought process, and to my mind, it proves her nature as a possible psycopath. Remember that she doesn't even bother to deny that label. 

It doesn't mean that we can't be sympathetic to her plight, indeed, what a tragic figure. She will never, ever really have what she wants, because she will destroy it, every time. She could have had a good freind in Sherlock-- who after all, offered to help her with Magnussen-- and then she shot him. It's a power and control thing. 
 

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (March 4, 2014 7:57 pm)

besleybean wrote:

Who says she isn't a good friend to Sherlock?

With freinds like her....

besleybean wrote:

Who says she isn't a good friend to Sherlock?

Usually friends don't shot each other, especially when one of them proposed his help 
 

besleybean wrote:

They seem friendly enough at the end.

That speaks more highly of Sherlock than it does Mary. Quite frankly, I wouldn't forgive, and I certainly wouldn't  forget. 

Ozymandias wrote:

Well actually we don't know if Sherlock forgave Mary. We just know that he clearly thought in his mind palace that Mary was dangerous. He was worried for John. I will be quite disappointed if he forgave her so easily. But still, maybe he has different standards. However, I disagree his explanation about John. It was clearly unfair to blame John by saying that he chose to marry with a dangerous woman. He couldn't know, and Sherlock was rejecting the blame on him. I'm quite bothered by that, because Mary thought she was right and blamed John for that too "yes, Sherlock is right, you knew I was dangerous and you married me". NO, HE DIDN'T KNOW THAT. HOW COULD HE POSSIBLY KNOW?

Shooting Sherlock is one thing. But if Moftiss really wanted to make up the Watsons and Sherlock Holmes, why such a clumsy explanation ? It would be really easy to make her apologize for shooting Sherlock, for having lied to John. Moftiss could have made her panic a little during Magnusson's office in order to show that she isn't a cold blooded assassin, or I don't know, something to make us forgive that she shot willingly the main character of the TV show and she's getting her away so easily while Sherlock sacrified his career and his life for saving Mary's and John's ass (well, okay, mostly John but still). When I watched the Sign of Three and HLV, the first thing which slipped in my mind was : "Hell, life is so unfair with Sherlock.". 

 

And see, I see this so differently--

What *I* got from Sherlock asserting that John *chose* Mary was not that he chose a psychopath on purpose, far from it. I got that Sherlock was asking him to ackowledge that he does have a tendency to go for the dangerous element, particlarily in people. And we see it from the beginning of the series--"And I said dangerous, and here you are." 

John moves in with Sherlock, and then shoots someone to death on his behalf , what 24 hours after meeting him? He knows what Sherlock is like, and he complains alot-- why doesn't he move? If he wants a normal life so much, he could simply leave, not have anything to do with Sherlock. He's not under Sherlock's control, he's a grown man, he's a veteran of war, he's older than Sherlock, and has more "real life" experience than Sherlock. So, John is there because he wants to be there. He's making choices. 

With Mary-- it's quite possible that what he was attracted to was that undercurrent of something dangerous-- and this happens all the time in real life. 

People date the same type, all the time, even when they're seemingly as different as you could get-- they may have a lot of the same characteristics at core. 

But John has made an art form out of denial.  And he's very, very good at making himself out to be the victim-- and by doing that, he makes everybody else responsible for his choices. It's actually not about whether it's "his fault"-- self-blame doesn't help here. But maybe clearly and honestly acknowledging that yes, he needs dangerous, exciting people in his life might lead him to embrace a healthier way of getting his "fix." 

John can be a very powerful person, when he wants to be. But at some point he has to take responsibility for his choices. We all do. It's a horrible feeling to have that pointed out to us, and we often react exactly the way John has. 

Of course, this is only my opinion. Crack may be involved. :-)

You may well be onto something here.

Ozymandias wrote:

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

Ozymandias wrote:

Well actually we don't know if Sherlock forgave Mary. We just know that he clearly thought in his mind palace that Mary was dangerous. He was worried for John. I will be quite disappointed if he forgave her so easily. But still, maybe he has different standards. However, I disagree his explanation about John. It was clearly unfair to blame John by saying that he chose to marry with a dangerous woman. He couldn't know, and Sherlock was rejecting the blame on him. I'm quite bothered by that, because Mary thought she was right and blamed John for that too "yes, Sherlock is right, you knew I was dangerous and you married me". NO, HE DIDN'T KNOW THAT. HOW COULD HE POSSIBLY KNOW?

Shooting Sherlock is one thing. But if Moftiss really wanted to make up the Watsons and Sherlock Holmes, why such a clumsy explanation ? It would be really easy to make her apologize for shooting Sherlock, for having lied to John. Moftiss could have made her panic a little during Magnusson's office in order to show that she isn't a cold blooded assassin, or I don't know, something to make us forgive that she shot willingly the main character of the TV show and she's getting her away so easily while Sherlock sacrified his career and his life for saving Mary's and John's ass (well, okay, mostly John but still). When I watched the Sign of Three and HLV, the first thing which slipped in my mind was : "Hell, life is so unfair with Sherlock.". 

 

And see, I see this so differently--

What *I* got from Sherlock asserting that John *chose* Mary was not that he chose a psychopath on purpose, far from it. I got that Sherlock was asking him to ackowledge that he does have a tendency to go for the dangerous element, particlarily in people. And we see it from the beginning of the series--"And I said dangerous, and here you are." 

John moves in with Sherlock, and then shoots someone to death on his behalf , what 24 hours after meeting him? He knows what Sherlock is like, and he complains alot-- why doesn't he move? If he wants a normal life so much, he could simply leave, not have anything to do with Sherlock. He's not under Sherlock's control, he's a grown man, he's a veteran of war, he's older than Sherlock, and has more "real life" experience than Sherlock. So, John is there because he wants to be there. He's making choices. 

With Mary-- it's quite possible that what he was attracted to was that undercurrent of something dangerous-- and this happens all the time in real life. 

People date the same type, all the time, even when they're seemingly as different as you could get-- they may have a lot of the same characteristics at core. 

But John has made an art form out of denial.  And he's very, very good at making himself out to be the victim-- and by doing that, he makes everybody else responsible for his choices. It's actually not about whether it's "his fault"-- self-blame doesn't help here. But maybe clearly and honestly acknowledging that yes, he needs dangerous, exciting people in his life might lead him to embrace a healthier way of getting his "fix." 

John can be a very powerful person, when he wants to be. But at some point he has to take responsibility for his choices. We all do. It's a horrible feeling to have that pointed out to us, and we often react exactly the way John has. 

Of course, this is only my opinion. Crack may be involved. :-)

I know what you mean. It's usually the case and you're right when you say that people have to assume the responsability of their choices. John chose to stay with Sherlock because he's craving for danger. He likes that. 

But when he decided to marry with Mary, he couldn't know she would be "dangerous". Nothing in her behaviour could make him possibly guess that. At the beginning of HLV, he was bored to death just after a month spent with Mary. 

By the way, I think it's quite a extraordinary coincidence (what, the universe is rarely so lazy?) for John Watson to have met an ex-assassin in the clinic he was working in. 
 

Oh, yeah. And I think that Mary might have een jumping on the bandwagon-- with the "you chose this" thing, for reasons of her own. And I think you're right; I can't beleive that John just happened to fall in love with the psycopathic ex-assasin next door. Doesn't make any sense. 

Yeah, but what is the ratio for finding a nice ex-assassin working at your clinic as a nurse? Hmm...
UNLESS John Watson is actually a magnet for dangerous people (in a litteral meaning). 

Last edited by Ozymandias (March 4, 2014 10:42 pm)