BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

SusiGo · February 28, 2014 11:28 am

@Be: I see what you mean and appreciate that one may choose this approach. This thread, however, was expressly not for philosophical discussion but just the opposite - taking clues and interpreting the words that are spoken and not spoken which is sometimes even more interesting.

By the way, this is not directed against you in any way.
I just find it strange to revert to the "it is all fiction" attitude when other arguments fail.

Last edited by SusiGo (February 28, 2014 11:28 am)

SusiGo · February 28, 2014 1:38 pm

Sorry, but this thread was never about double standards or what is believable in the Sherlock universe and what is not.
She may have been out of the game, I never denied that. But she returns to it the very first moment she feels cornered instead of trying to find a way out of it that fits her new lifestyle and identity - asking help someone. Her husband's genius best friend. Her husband himself. But no, she puts on the combat dress and takes the gun and off she goes. And this is not speculation but what we see.

SusiGo · February 28, 2014 1:58 pm

For me the main difference between Sherlock and Mary is that you cannot compare their respective pasts. Being a drug addict and an assassin is not the same. The former mainly hurts himself, the latter hurts others. Therefore I do not buy his explanation in the 221B scene of them being alike. No chance.

We have been over this more than once but let me repeat - until HLV we have never seen Sherlock killing willingly and deliberately another person. Even when he employed illegal or questionable measures it was his aim to solve a case and restore justice. He saved John's and Sarah's lives in TBB, he saved Henry's sanity in HoB. Not to mention TRF.

lil · February 28, 2014 2:33 pm

Might be worth taking a step back from the trees and looking at the wood.
Whats the point, why were we shown this .
Trying to not be too deep/analytical....
Doyles HLB was a bit of a patriotic flag wave ..support the war thing.
Here Moftiss do a modern take.
The modern war and sides are all secrets and information and who has it and what they do about it . All blurred lines now between friends and foes.
Sherlock shows us that sometimes the rules don't work..and sometimes even allies..good sides have to do bad things.
But if we accept that..then we need a cautionary tale alongside it..to show how it can all go wrong.
Its Mycrofts end speach.
So thematically Sherlocks actions should all fall into the acceptable bad...and Marys unacceptable bad because she is Sherlocks foil here.
We have to look at the cause to justify the actions..and those are opposites.
As a character Sherlock always has been a dubious and cynical representation of a justice system that sometimes doesn't work.

lil · February 28, 2014 4:53 pm

S@S yups.
The line here ,,the cautionary bit not to cross..is how we treat the innocents.
Sherlocks all about protecting them here..the Smallwoods..John..the baby..the country..etc
But with Mary the innocent bystander becomes collateral damage..and its not some nameless faceless person..its the hero..the person we love.
When we cross that line Sherlocks dead and the game is over.

In context a lot of things fall more into place imo.

Sherlock Holmes · February 28, 2014 4:55 pm

Just because we haven't seen Sherlock killing on screen, doesn't mean he hasn't actually done it, especially on his hiatus breaking up Moriarty's network. He wasn't just drinking tea with them and asking them to kindly give up crime.

SusiGo · February 28, 2014 4:56 pm

I fully agree with you, lil. Shooting Sherlock was crossing a line. There is no way back from that.

Tinks · February 28, 2014 5:58 pm

lil wrote:
S@S yups.
The line here ,,the cautionary bit not to cross..is how we treat the innocents.
Sherlocks all about protecting them here..the Smallwoods..John..the baby..the country..etc
But with Mary the innocent bystander becomes collateral damage..and its not some nameless faceless person..its the hero..the person we love.
When we cross that line Sherlocks dead and the game is over.

In context a lot of things fall more into place imo.

This. This. And this, again.
Sherlock protects. He might even cross the line when it's his friends he's protecting or when he's "licensed to kill" as I imagine he would be with Moriarty's network.
Mary shot an innocent and someone who'd been a friend to her, who'd vowed to protect her.

However she's portrayed from here on, there's no taking that back.

RavenMorganLeigh · February 28, 2014 6:03 pm

Tinks wrote:
lil wrote:
S@S yups.
The line here ,,the cautionary bit not to cross..is how we treat the innocents.
Sherlocks all about protecting them here..the Smallwoods..John..the baby..the country..etc
But with Mary the innocent bystander becomes collateral damage..and its not some nameless faceless person..its the hero..the person we love.
When we cross that line Sherlocks dead and the game is over.

In context a lot of things fall more into place imo.

This. This. And this, again.
Sherlock protects. He might even cross the line when it's his friends he's protecting or when he's "licensed to kill" as I imagine he would be with Moriarty's network.
Mary shot an innocent and someone who'd been a friend to her, who'd vowed to protect her.

However she's portrayed from here on, there's no taking that back.

Yes, to both posts-- spot on!!!!

Ozymandias · February 28, 2014 7:23 pm

Swanpride, I agree with you. Sherlock said that the logical approach would have been to shot him and Magnussen. However, what do we know about Sherlock's real thoughts? We only know what he said to John, and the fact that he really thought he was going to die (Mind!palace Mycroft, Molly, Moriarty).

I'm myself convinced that Mary couldn't have shot Sherlock in the head. If she killed him at this time, John would have immediately poursued the killer. It wasn't really convenient for her. But it is a hypothesis as we never had Mary's POV. She never agreed or denied Sherlock's explanations.

About Sherlock's behaviour : yes, he's a dick, but he doesn't kill people. But despite his behaviour, he actually catches murderers and saves people's life. (Yes I know that he possibly killed Moriarty's men during his hiatus, but it stays a hypothesis).

However, I don't understand why all Mary's fans are trying to prove that she really didn't try to kill Sherlock (she shot her in the liver, for God's sake, and he flatlined). It's okay if people likes a non-heros too !

For example, Dexter or Walter White weren't really good people, but a bunch of people love them (me included). That's why we loved Sherlock too even if sometimes he was a complete asshole at the beginning of the TV show. I don't think that people was trying to excuse him...

QuiteExtraordinary · February 28, 2014 7:35 pm

Normally the whole plot with Mary would make sense. She has to lie about her past and her identity and makes bad decisions out of fear. She doesn't trust John, Sherlock or anyone else enough to ask for help but tries to do everything on her own. That turns out to be a mistake. Sherlock makes more or less the same mistake by distancing himself from John and Mary and trying to deal with Magnussen alone. Then he and Mary get in each other's way. Later they make a decision to talk things out and trust each other, and in the end the case is solved. That would be a more or less logical plot. The only problem is why Sherlock forgave her so easily for shooting him, and even helped and supported her afterwards. That's the strange thing to me. It seems to make no sense and somehow throws a shadow on everything else.

lil · February 28, 2014 8:38 pm

Mary shot Sherlock he died.
No medical mumbo or survival statistics bought him back.
Paramedics didn't shock him..he was dead.
If Mary did a safety shot she ")(:;'@-/"!;: it up.
What we were shown was Sherlock digging deep , finding his will and his reason and forcing himself to live.
Even Mary herself does not believe the saviour shot crap...she is incredulous@that explanation.
Two manipulators manipulate John.
Sherlock protecting the innocents again.
Looks like Sherlock can laugh over his own corpse with Mary.
John wouldn't get that joke.

RavenMorganLeigh · February 28, 2014 9:02 pm

I did some reading about attempted murder charges in the UK-- because if Mary had been caught, that's what she would been arrested and charged with. What's very interesting is the criteria for determining Attempted murder: And yes, it fits.

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/sentencing_manual/attempted_murder/

lil · February 28, 2014 9:02 pm

Heart stopped , no pulse , is not dead?
I hope I didn't miss John doing compressions and mouth to mouth......

lil · February 28, 2014 9:07 pm

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
I did some reading about attempted murder charges in the UK-- because if Mary had been caught, that's what she would been arrested and charged with. What's very interesting is the criteria for determining Attempted murder: And yes, it fits.

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/sentencing_manual/attempted_murder/

Well the moment anyone ran her fingerprints....the cia would quietly extradite her to face the multiple murder counts....and other collateral damage charges..
Maybe thats why Mycroft/Sherlock are stalling for time, and keeping her close.

Could be too real an answer for tv.
But yes.

Last edited by lil (February 28, 2014 9:10 pm)

RavenMorganLeigh · February 28, 2014 9:08 pm

lil wrote:
Mary shot Sherlock he died.
No medical mumbo or survival statistics bought him back.
Paramedics didn't shock him..he was dead.
If Mary did a safety shot she ")(:;'@-/"!;: it up.
What we were shown was Sherlock digging deep , finding his will and his reason and forcing himself to live.
Even Mary herself does not believe the saviour shot crap...she is incredulous@that explanation.
Two manipulators manipulate John.
Sherlock protecting the innocents again.
Looks like Sherlock can laugh over his own corpse with Mary.
John wouldn't get that joke.

Actually, that's an excellent point-- and it makes me ponder thusly; Okay, I can see that there's a 'defend Mary at all costs", sort of vibe going around the fandom-- and some of it has been justified by asserting that, hey, Sherlock's a jerk, surely he's killed people, he's not white as the driven snow-- those sort of arguments. And of course, Mary did it for love of John.

For love of John?

How much could Mary have loved John that she was prepared to kill John's best friend, for whom he grieved so profoundly? If we don't care about Sherlock, what about John? Surely John deserved better than this?

Just thinkin'.

Again, if we're actually watching the episode-- Sherlock flatlined, and the doctors gave up. He. Was. Dead.

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (February 28, 2014 9:10 pm)

Willow · February 28, 2014 10:16 pm

lil wrote:
Heart stopped , no pulse , is not dead?
I hope I didn't miss John doing compressions and mouth to mouth......

Sadly, I missed it too.

The legal definition of death is brain death; this is of importance in cases where the body still works but there's no-one at home.

In reality, once someone stops breathing there is three to four minutes or so to re-establish oxygen supply to the brain or irreversible brain damage results. So, the general plan is to intubate the patient to secure the airway, ventilate them and persuade their heart to start beating again if it has stopped. People always think in terms of cardiac arrest but respiratory arrest kills people equally as well because it's all about oxygen; either way you are dead.

There are very rare cases when someone appears to be dead, and a doctor believes them to be dead; as far as I know it is not mandatory to check for brain activity before a doctor concludes that death has occurred, so the writers do have a tiny shred of fact for the drama. And then there's the apparently drowned person; if the water is cold enough the body may shut down before true death occurs. This is why there is an A&E mantra: they are not dead until they are warm and dead.

My daughter's back from her hols, and started on the latest round of night shifts, so if someone crashes tonight in her hospital she will abandon her Medical Registrar dignity and run like hell because there is very little time before irreversible brain damage occurs; someone like Sherlock would not want to come back from that.

But yes, to you and I Sherlock was dead; fortunately it didn't last because otherwise there would be no S4. Though I do wonder whether the 4 minutes he spent in the air is a reference to the 4 minutes the crash team has...

besleybean · February 28, 2014 10:18 pm

And she didn't do what Sherlock did to CAM!

RavenMorganLeigh · February 28, 2014 10:23 pm

besleybean wrote:
And she didn't do what Sherlock did to CAM!

I gotta say, I wish the writers hadn't made Sherlock a cold blooded murderer, even if it was on John's and Mary's behalf. Not cool.

SusiGo · February 28, 2014 10:25 pm

Swanpride wrote:
I can only speak for myself...but I am mostly not inclined to agree that Sherlock either deduced her wrong or is deliberately trying to conceal an attempted murder from John. I firmly believe that his deduction was right and Mary did give him a chance to survive. And yes, I am ready to defend Mary from everyone who claims otherwise, because all the evidence (mainly the fact that Sherlock is still alive, but also the spot she picked) speaks for Sherlock's version being the correct one. I'm also inclined to believe that she called the ambulance, because she was the only one who had reason and opportunity to do so before John did. And again, I'm ready to defend her from anyone who tries to rewrite the episode in order to make her look worse than she already does.

That doesn't mean though that I don't understand it if some people have problems to accept the idea that she shot Sherlock. It's just this tendency to make what she did even worse which bothers me. Because there is honestly no need. What she did was bad enough. I like her nevertheless, but I don't expect everyone to feel the same. Just .... why is it so hard to understand that while she risked Sherlock's life (which was the wrong move, no question), she did not try to kill him?

My problem is not accepting the idea that she shot Sherlock (which is the writer's choice and a simple fact) but that I should like her. I do not see her do anything remotely positive in this episode, at least not for John and Sherlock. Her main concern IMO is herself.