BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Sherlock's relationship with Mycroft

Davina · June 16, 2012 3:52 pm

Just your third observation I am unsure about. The being charming to get his way and not intimidating people. I think it is more of the fact that he is incredibly manipulative. He will do what he needs to do to get what he wants. If that means charming people then he can turn it on like the best of them; as you mention, Molly, is a classic case in point. However he can also be intimidatory e.g. With the headmistress of the kidnapped children's school and also with Anderson and Donovan who he belittles in front of others. He can also make himself seem vunerable, if that is what is needed.

When he is with Mycroft he definitely reverts to younger/est sibling behaviour. He will use physical violence when necessary and to excess if angry- witness the CIA man falling, repeatedly, out of the window.

kazza474 · June 16, 2012 9:59 pm

As a youngest sibling, I resemble those remarks.

hypergreenfrog · June 17, 2012 8:28 pm

Davina wrote:
Just your third observation I am unsure about. The being charming to get his way and not intimidating people. I think it is more of the fact that he is incredibly manipulative. He will do what he needs to do to get what he wants. If that means charming people then he can turn it on like the best of them; as you mention, Molly, is a classic case in point. However he can also be intimidatory e.g. With the headmistress of the kidnapped children's school and also with Anderson and Donovan who he belittles in front of others. He can also make himself seem vunerable, if that is what is needed.

When he is with Mycroft he definitely reverts to younger/est sibling behaviour. He will use physical violence when necessary and to excess if angry- witness the CIA man falling, repeatedly, out of the window.

I accept your point of view, and of course we will never know exactly how certain scenes were meant by the writers.

The way I see it is that the incidents you mention are not really displays of violence or threatening behaviour as character traits.
While the burglar definitely made Sherlock angry, I think he threw him out of the window to test how much damage falling out of a second story window would do.
He also didn't threaten the head mistress because that's "his thing" but because he needed her to speak quickly, it was almost more like he was impersonating someone else.

Come to think of it, the "charming Molly"-scene is the best example of his general attitude... of course it's manipulative and scheming, but could you imagine Mycroft trying that? He could have just as well tried to intimidate her, threaten her (I'm sure he knows stuff about her that could get her into trouble at the hospital), but he chooses to compliment her hair.

veecee · June 17, 2012 9:00 pm

Davina wrote:
And Mycroft is on a continual diet in the series, with Sherlock continually referring to his weight. This is clearly a nod to the canon. Maybe Mark will have to put on tonnes of weight by the end!

Just an aside really, but the BBC is also known as Mummy. Lol

Another nod is when Mycroft disdainfully says he won't go after the missing plans because it would involve "legwork." (Sorry if someone else already mentioned this. I came late to this thread.)

kazza474 · June 18, 2012 3:18 am

hypergreenfrog wrote:
- As a natural habit, he will try to charm people into helping him or to get his way, rather than intimidating them (Molly, playing the injured priest, even with Moriarty to a degree)

Davina wrote:
Just your third observation I am unsure about. The being charming to get his way and not intimidating people. I think it is more of the fact that he is incredibly manipulative. He will do what he needs to do to get what he wants. If that means charming people then he can turn it on like the best of them; as you mention, Molly, is a classic case in point. However he can also be intimidatory e.g. With the headmistress of the kidnapped children's school and also with Anderson and Donovan who he belittles in front of others. He can also make himself seem vunerable, if that is what is needed.

When he is with Mycroft he definitely reverts to younger/est sibling behaviour. He will use physical violence when necessary and to excess if angry- witness the CIA man falling, repeatedly, out of the window.

hypergreenfrog wrote:
The way I see it is that the incidents you mention are not really displays of violence or threatening behaviour as character traits.
While the burglar definitely made Sherlock angry, I think he threw him out of the window to test how much damage falling out of a second story window would do.
He also didn't threaten the head mistress because that's "his thing" but because he needed her to speak quickly, it was almost more like he was impersonating someone else.

Come to think of it, the "charming Molly"-scene is the best example of his general attitude... of course it's manipulative and scheming, but could you imagine Mycroft trying that? He could have just as well tried to intimidate her, threaten her (I'm sure he knows stuff about her that could get her into trouble at the hospital), but he chooses to compliment her hair.

Hmm.
Charming & manipulative; both very similar really. A means to an end; and that is all Sherlock is interested in, getting a result. The method he uses & whether he hurts anyone's feelings or physically hurts someone is neither here nor there to him. Those are subjective things to a large degree; the amount of pain one can take, the the amount of emotions one feels are all different for different people & he doesn't bother himself with thoe details. He just wants a result.
The headmistress - he knew how she would react, he was just told she was very upset; but he needed that result fast so his talk to her was a catalyst for that reaction. Purely scientific - totally Sherlock.
Molly - he knows how she reacts to him. When he wants something, he uses that knowledge to achieve the best result. Purely scientific - totally Sherlock.
The burglar (CIA agent) - He needed to send a clear message to him to stay away from his home and that worse would follow if he didn't. Purely scientific - totally Sherlock.

It is not a case of him wanting to hurt people, he wanting to use people. Because those are emotional things and he doesn't dabble in emotional games. He wants a concise scientific result.
Purely scientific - totally Sherlock.

Sentimental Pulse · June 20, 2012 9:57 pm

Davina wrote:
Just your third observation I am unsure about. The being charming to get his way and not intimidating people. I think it is more of the fact that he is incredibly manipulative. He will do what he needs to do to get what he wants. If that means charming people then he can turn it on like the best of them; as you mention, Molly, is a classic case in point. However he can also be intimidatory e.g. With the headmistress of the kidnapped children's school and also with Anderson and Donovan who he belittles in front of others. He can also make himself seem vunerable, if that is what is needed.

When he is with Mycroft he definitely reverts to younger/est sibling behaviour. He will use physical violence when necessary and to excess if angry- witness the CIA man falling, repeatedly, out of the window.

Yes i was watching The Great Game last night and observing how easily and often Sherlock vascilates back and forth between child and adult mode. For example when he sends John off in a huff and he skips around the room and makes faces after Mrs.Hudson admonishes him about the wall right before the blast, he is pure petulant child. When he tells John there are no heroes and then kids him about it after Watson sulks, he is pure adult cynic. Fascinating dichotomy that I think Benedict/Sherlock alone bring to the collective portrayals of Sherlock Holmes

Sherlock Holmes · June 21, 2012 11:47 am

Sentimental Pulse wrote:
Davina wrote:
Just your third observation I am unsure about. The being charming to get his way and not intimidating people. I think it is more of the fact that he is incredibly manipulative. He will do what he needs to do to get what he wants. If that means charming people then he can turn it on like the best of them; as you mention, Molly, is a classic case in point. However he can also be intimidatory e.g. With the headmistress of the kidnapped children's school and also with Anderson and Donovan who he belittles in front of others. He can also make himself seem vunerable, if that is what is needed.

When he is with Mycroft he definitely reverts to younger/est sibling behaviour. He will use physical violence when necessary and to excess if angry- witness the CIA man falling, repeatedly, out of the window.

Yes i was watching The Great Game last night and observing how easily and often Sherlock vascilates back and forth between child and adult mode. For example when he sends John off in a huff and he skips around the room and makes faces after Mrs.Hudson admonishes him about the wall right before the blast, he is pure petulant child. When he tells John there are no heroes and then kids him about it after Watson sulks, he is pure adult cynic. Fascinating dichotomy that I think Benedict/Sherlock alone bring to the collective portrayals of Sherlock Holmes

Yeah, I really love the fact that he can just snap back and forth between all these different sides to his personality. Unbelievably cool.

Smoggy_London_Air · June 21, 2012 2:00 pm

Well, there's definitely more rivalry in the series than there is in the books, that's for sure. In the canon, Sherlock has just kind of resigned himself to the fact that Mycroft's smarter than him, albeit in a somewhat childish way ("He's smarter than I am, but I'll always be better than him because I'm not LAZY.") whereas in the series it's definitely an open wound.

You look at the difference between the two brothers, and I think at their core they just have two conflicting traits. Sherlock has more drive than he has ambition. Mycroft has more ambition than he has drive. Although, compared to "normal" people, they both have immense quantities of both. This makes them very different.

Someone also brought up formality a page or so ago, and I realized that over the course of the canon only one person ever calls Sherlock by his Christian name, and that's Mycroft. Watson certainly never does this, even when he's in Mycroft's presence. It's always "Holmes" or "My friend" or "Sherlock Holmes" or "Mr. Holmes". I've read other Victorian literature, and this isn't always the case. Grown men will in rare cases refer to very close friends, even people who aren't childhood friends, by their Christian names. It seems odd to me that even though Watson and Sherlock have lived together and known each other for more than thirty years by the end of the canon, they still call each other by their last names, Watson with his title in many cases. This is mere speculation, but I attribute this to the way that Sherlock alienates Watson, and because Watson is always conscious of the rift between them intellectually. And now I'm getting off topic.

So while we're talking about Mycroft and Sherlock, I'm wondering how they're going to portray Mycroft in Elementary, if they portray him at all. He does have a large role in Sherlock, much bigger than he has in the canon. It seems implausible that they would just leave him out altogether, but I wouldn't put much past them. They couldn't put Mycroft in the series without changing him considerably, though, because obviously Mycroft would be English, like Sherlock, so how would he have such a large hand in the government if he's not even a natural-born citizen. And besides, this is New York, not Washington DC, and while NYC is almost like a second capital, I think such a high ranking government official would have to live in Washington, even with the internet. And so we find another problem with moving Sherlock out of London. Personally, I hope that we see a Mycroft if the show continues past the pilot (And, let's be frank, I have a feeling that it will. Sherlock is nearly up on Inception in plot complexity and rewatch requirements. Some people just won't make that commitment, so even if Elementary sucks, they'll still watch it.) but a Mycroft that has maybe assimilated into American culture, or maybe their father is an American ambassador or something and Mycroft was born here. I don't know, but I hope they get creative at some point in the show's life.

Davina · June 21, 2012 2:35 pm

Oh I don't know about the natural-born citizen bit. Henry Kissinger did alright as has Arnold Schwarzenegger. I think they will have to leave Mycroft out of the CBS version unless he works in a different way. Moftiss would have grounds for saying that is blatant copying, as the character is not like that in the canon.

Another point I will make though is that, here in the UK, it is very normal for men and boys to refer each other by their surnames only, if they are not family. I used to think it was because of the way that registers were called in school. The teachers used to call out only the boys' surnames but would call the girls by first and surnames. Many of my son's friend, for instance, will call him just by his surname or a nickname of his surname. You seem to find this a lot too in sports teams.

imane nikko · June 21, 2012 3:23 pm

After rewatching all the episodes a few times, it seems to me that almost all of what we see of the Sherlock/Mycroft relationship is a performance. I'm not sure what the purpose is behind it, but that conversation in the morgue (almost emotionless, devoid of any sniping) makes me think that they play up the "sibling rivalry" for strategic reasons.

My theory is that it gives them a certain leeway. They can call on each other for help without having everyone automatically assume that they are allies. It's an advantage to appear weaker than you actually are, one that Sherlock exploits regularly.

Sherli Bakerst · June 21, 2012 3:28 pm

Besides Kissinger and Schwartzenegger, there was also Madeline Albright, who was born in Czechoslovakia and became US Secretary of State.

It's very interesting to ponder the role Mycroft might have in Elementary. I agree that being part of the US government wouldn't work. However, if the producers wanted to include him in some way, I could easily see him as a titan of Wall Street, which, of course, is located in New York. And in many ways, nowadays, Wall Street bankers have as much if not more power than leaders of the government and operate in secrecy and without much oversight to achieve their ends.

Smoggy_London_Air · June 21, 2012 8:07 pm

@Imane I think you may have a point, that does make sense. I didn't even look at it that way.

@Davina They're already taking plenty of liberties, so, heck, why not? To be honest I don't really care how much they trash the characters at this point, I just want a show that's good and hopefully a little bit creative. Of course, that's probably setting my hopes very high, but hopefully JLM will bring something extra to the character. Both he and Benedict Cumberbatch played the same character before, but as has been pointed out numerous times, their interpretations were actually very different despite having the same lines. They've already mangled everything beyond recognition.

I also want to see someone intelligent be American. I mean, for god's sake, it's an American show and already the genius is slated to be British! Joan, I'm sure, will be moderately intelligent, but nothing compared to Sherlock. As far as government goes, the only position that is off limits to someone not born here is, obviously, the role of President, so Mycroft could still hold an important position. However, I can't really see him moving to America for anything other than a really good reason. Maybe Mycroft himself is the ambassador, or at least someone at the embassy. I like the idea of a Wall Street Tycoon.

Last edited by Smoggy_London_Air (June 21, 2012 8:13 pm)

Davina · June 24, 2012 6:33 pm

Getting back to the point of this thread...does it strike anyone else. Slightly odd that Mycroft asks John what is like to live with Sherlock and adds 'hellish I imagine'.

A brother who does not know what it is like to live with his own brother. This tells us a lot I feel. It is likely that they went to boarding school and also it is partly explained by Mycroft being -0 years older than Sherlock. Most people in the same family know what it is like to live with another family member, don't they?

Sherlock Holmes · June 24, 2012 7:34 pm

Smoggy_London_Air wrote:
I also want to see someone intelligent be American. I mean, for god's sake, it's an American show and already the genius is slated to be British! Joan, I'm sure, will be moderately intelligent, but nothing compared to Sherlock. As far as government goes, the only position that is off limits to someone not born here is, obviously, the role of President, so Mycroft could still hold an important position. However, I can't really see him moving to America for anything other than a really good reason. Maybe Mycroft himself is the ambassador, or at least someone at the embassy. I like the idea of a Wall Street Tycoon.

Do you think they will make Mycroft American then? Has it already been announced that they will? Forgive me, but I don't particularly follow the Elementary thread all that much.

I really hope they don't because Sherlock is still being British, so why would he have an American brother?

Irene Adler · June 24, 2012 7:34 pm

Davina wrote:
Getting back to the point of this thread...does it strike anyone else. Slightly odd that Mycroft asks John what is like to live with Sherlock and adds 'hellish I imagine'.

A brother who does not know what it is like to live with his own brother. This tells us a lot I feel. It is likely that they went to boarding school and also it is partly explained by Mycroft being -0 years older than Sherlock. Most people in the same family know what it is like to live with another family member, don't they?

I've always thought that Mycroft knows exactly how living with Sherlock is: hellish. I think he just wants John to agree with him. I don't think Mycroft is asking out of ignorance (I mean ignorance about what to live with Sherlock is like), I think he just wants John to corroborate that it is like living hell.

Smoggy_London_Air · June 25, 2012 1:35 am

Sherlock Holmes wrote:
Smoggy_London_Air wrote:
I also want to see someone intelligent be American. I mean, for god's sake, it's an American show and already the genius is slated to be British! Joan, I'm sure, will be moderately intelligent, but nothing compared to Sherlock. As far as government goes, the only position that is off limits to someone not born here is, obviously, the role of President, so Mycroft could still hold an important position. However, I can't really see him moving to America for anything other than a really good reason. Maybe Mycroft himself is the ambassador, or at least someone at the embassy. I like the idea of a Wall Street Tycoon.
Do you think they will make Mycroft American then? Has it already been announced that they will? Forgive me, but I don't particularly follow the Elementary thread all that much.

I really hope they don't because Sherlock is still being British, so why would he have an American brother?

No, they haven't announced anything. I doubt they're even doing a Mycroft. This was just my headcanon, basically, because otherwise how would Mycroft be so involved in the government? Moving from Eastern Europe or Asia to get involved in American government is one thing, but I can't see someone of Mycroft's personality moving from Britain just to get involved in government, which is why I suggested that Mycroft might have ties in America for some reason or another.

kazza474 · June 25, 2012 1:39 am

Sherlock Holmes wrote:
Do you think they will make Mycroft American then? Has it already been announced that they will? Forgive me, but I don't particularly follow the Elementary thread all that much.

I really hope they don't because Sherlock is still being British, so why would he have an American brother?

I'm envisaging them having Mycroft a an English Bull Terrier.

Morton · September 26, 2012 12:29 am

Davina wrote:
I think, in the warehouse use scene when initially Mycrfot seems to be warning John off associating with Sherlock, that he is actually testing John's mettle, as it were. He says to him about how very loyal he is so very quickly. He knows that John cannot be bribed to sell Sherlock out, even at this early stage of their relationship, so that he knows John is an honourable man. He also knows that John is an army doctor, back from Afghanistan and that as such is used to all that entails; what an ideal 'partner' for his 'little brother'.

Is there anything else to be gleaned from Study in Pink? Do you think?

I think Mycroft had already deduced that John had a tendency to be stubborn and make up his own mind about people and that it was not a warning off but that Mycroft was using reverse psychology to spur him on.He does apply some tests such as the attempted bribery and the it's a battleground remark is meant to spark John's interest because he does have a capacity to perform especially well in dangerous situations.

Sherlock I think also must have deduced John's capacity and sent him a text "could be dangerous".

NW16XE · September 26, 2012 1:00 am

Sherlock Holmes wrote:
I think Mycroft and Sherlock's relationship really isn't that dissimilar from any other sibling relationship in the world. They argue, they bicker, they make fun of each other and do things to purposely wind the other up, but deep down they love and respect each other and would do anything for each other.

Put it this way...if Mycroft had been the one about to get a sniper bullet, Sherlock still would have jumped off that roof!

Shallow of me, but the childishness is really what I enjoy the most about their relationship. No matter who is around or where they are (even at Buck House in ASiB), in each other's company they are instantly back to being a pair of clever but snotty and immature 12 year olds.

MaggieM · September 26, 2012 3:56 am

Older more conservative brother watching over his prodigy baby brother. Highly intelligent and shrewd himself, knows he and his brother are on the same side (like kazza said), and smart enough to use him. reminds me a bit of george sanders. natty dresser. regularly cracks me up i love a writer gets a sterling part on screen besides the script glory.

Last edited by MaggieM (September 26, 2012 3:57 am)