nakahara wrote:

It′s a big bonfire but, frankly, I don′t see enough place there for two people to jump around and work in tandem in such a hurry. They would end up bumping uselessly into each other which would slow up their rescue of John.
 
That „Get out, John“ line was quite bizarre, I admit. But I don′t see anything sinister behind it.
 

I don't think the OP was asking whether it's sinister; she was noting that it seems extremely strange. After all, if all that John had to do was remove himself from the bonfire he would have done so already. Equally, why should she have gone to Sherlock with an apparently vitally urgent message if, upon arrival, she believes that John can remove himself from the bonfire? It doesn't make sense.

It does make sense if she's CAM's agent, whose job it is to ascertain just how far Sherlock will go to assist John; in those circumstances her actions do make sense.
 

I would like to come back to one of the things that struck me most - that Mary never expresses her feelings for John. I am not expecting any schmaltzy declarations of love at the altar but just one sentence. It would not have struck me so much if not John and most of all Sherlock "Caring is not an advantage" Holmes had voiced their feelings so openly. 

I agree with you. This is not about demonising her but looking at what is there. And as you say, in the bonfire scene the focus is totally on Sherlock and John, even after he has pulled him out of the fire. They could have made Sherlock step back and Mary take action to comfort or examine John. But we get John's perspective with Sherlock's face in front of him and Mary a bit blurry standing in the background. And this although she is his girlfriend AND other than Sherlock has a medical training. 

And why don't we look at what Mary actually does say to or about John? Susi, you already gave us some examples, and I had to think of the following two.

The first is from TSoT, when Mary tells Sherlock that she knows when he's fibbing. And what does she say?
Mary: "I’m not John. I can tell when you’re fibbing."
Looks harmless enough, doesn't it? And yes, we probably all sometimes tell other people how good we are at something by telling them at the same time that someone else sucks at it. Still, IMO she could have found a nicer way to tell Sherlock that she's clever - without kind of bashing the man she loves.

Then, also from TSoT, the scene in front of Sholto's room. Sherlock tells Mary that John also is a drama queen, and Mary says: "Yeah, I know."
Once again, it seems harmless enough. But it seems to me that Mary always knows what to say when it's about John's not so perfect qualities. But when it's about herself and the mistakes she might have made - next to nothing.

I actually was pretty annoyed btw when in HLV this dialogue ensued:
JOHN: "So, are you okay?"
MARY (rather sarcastically): "Oh! Are we doing conversation today? It really is Christmas."
All that I have to say about this is: Even if John hasn't been talking to Mary for months (and I know that some people think that he should grow up and stuff, and not talking to Mary probably appears to be a very childish thing) - who's fault is that, really? John's fault? Mary is the one who screwed up, and still... she is the one who is pissed? Well...
 

Last edited by SolarSystem (February 25, 2014 3:33 pm)

SusiGo wrote:

She is the best thing that could happen, she sees through Sherlock's fibbing, she manoeuvres them out of the flat …

And also, she reacts kind of annoyed and not very supportive in TEH, when they are in the kebab shop and John is 'over-reacting':
JOHN (furiously): "'Over-reacting'?!"
MARY: "John!"
John might even be over-reacting, he is definitely reacting in a very loud and upset manner - but isn't that totally understandable? It's been... an hour or two that Sherlock came back from the dead, why should John be calm? And the way in which Mary says "John!" - it's as if she wanted to say "Will you shut up now, don't make such a fuss!". Not what I personally would expect from John's girlfriend in a situation like this one...
 

Last edited by SolarSystem (February 25, 2014 3:49 pm)

Swanpride wrote:

@SolarSystem That's mostly English humour. Like John "threatening" to marry her if she doesn't shut up.

Did we ever doubt that Sherlock likes John? And how often does her actually say that he does? Or the other way around, how often makes John any declaration? They needed until the second season to even call each other "friends".

First I think (letting Johnlock out of the equation) that friendship between two men and love between spouses are not one and the same. But let us have a look at what Sherlock and John do for each other in series 1 and 2:
- Sherlock helps John to lose his limp
- John shoots the cabbie for Sherlock
- John refuses to spy on Sherlock
- John saves Sherlock from the Golem's attack
- Sherlock confesses his friendship in HoB
- John is worried for Sherlock after Irene's alleged death
- John grieves for Sherlock and says "I was so alone and I owe you so much"

And there are just some examples. They show their feelings by words and actions and this is definitely something I miss from Mary. 

Last edited by SusiGo (February 25, 2014 3:55 pm)

But we don't know what will happen next season.

I'd like to come back to these:

"Mary is angry on John's behalf when she tells Sherlock "Do you have any idea what you have done?"" - understandable.
and not a long time afterwards:
"John!!"  - which did sound reproachfull to me. Maybe not really as "shut up!" but also not in a very calming way, either.

It was something which irritated me. It's like Mary's taking over Sherlock's side (and against John) somehow very quickly.

Last edited by Mattlocked (February 25, 2014 5:33 pm)

Good point, QE. 

And Mattlocked: It is true, she forgives Sherlock very quickly although she knows how John has suffered. Do not get me wrong, of course we want her to like Sherlock, but she shifts her loyalty very quickly. This is what I meant by the "confidant" quote. Here, too, she tries to explain Sherlock's actions and thereby hurts John by stressing that not he but Mycroft played that part. 

Mattlocked wrote:

I'd like to come back to these:

"Mary is angry on John's behalf when she tells Sherlock "Do you have any idea what you have done?"" - understandable.
and not a long time afterwards:
"John!!"  - which did sound reproachfull to me. Maybe not really as "shut up!" but also not in a very calming way, either.

It was something which irritated me. It's like Mary's taking over Sherlock's side (and against John) somehow very quickly.

Which would be entirely understandable if she perceived Sherlock as useful to her, and John as someone she can easily manipulate.

It's a great deal less understandable if she is madly in love with John and realises what Sherlock's apparent suicide did to him.