Swanpride wrote:

She is possessive because he holds John's hand at the grave of his best friend? Wow! And here I thought she was just trying to comfort him. But I guess I should have seen it. After all, she is definitely possessive when she is talking John around to forgiving Sherlock, and encouraging him to spend time with in in preparation for the wedding. Totally. John can hardly breath because she constantly clings on him - NOT!

 
You raise some interesting points for me there, Swanpride.
I don't see Mary as possessive - I agree with you on that one.
But her behaviour concerning John's relationship with Sherlock DID change;
In TEH and TSOT, she was practically pushing the two of them together, yet at the beginning of HLV she is exasperated by the fact that John is missing Sherlock after not seeing him for " only a month" - I wonder if this a hint at something - some reason why she suddenly wanted to keep John away from Sherlock?

TeeJay wrote:

And in terms of Sherlock saying Mary's aim was "surgery", well, I'm sure that was just a pretty word they used to illustrate Mary's decision not to go for the forehead shot. If I wanted to be really pedantic, I guess I could try to argue now that she'd know where exactly the major blood vessels in the liver area are located, and she chose an exact spot where she wouldn't hit any of them. But, well, that would be a little too precise, wouldn't it?

It would deffinitely be too pracise. Becouse of individual variations in anatomy (we are not clones) it's impossible to know exactly what you are going to hit just be looking at someone. Aspecially not when they are wearing several layers of clothing.

Mary gave Sherlock a fighting chance by aiming where she did. Statistically gunshot wound to the liver have a mortality rate of about 10%, which are not bad odds.  She couldn't have known exactly how this will end up and it's not safe by any stretch of imagination but I really don't think she wanted to kill him.  There is a good chance that she nicked the inferior vana cava ( a very big blood vessel) considering how quickly he bled out but my interpretation is that this was unlucky. If she wanted him dead she would have aimed somewhere else.

belis wrote:

TeeJay wrote:

And in terms of Sherlock saying Mary's aim was "surgery", well, I'm sure that was just a pretty word they used to illustrate Mary's decision not to go for the forehead shot. If I wanted to be really pedantic, I guess I could try to argue now that she'd know where exactly the major blood vessels in the liver area are located, and she chose an exact spot where she wouldn't hit any of them. But, well, that would be a little too precise, wouldn't it?

It would deffinitely be too pracise. Becouse of individual variations in anatomy (we are not clones) it's impossible to know exactly what you are going to hit just be looking at someone. Aspecially not when they are wearing several layers of clothing.

Mary gave Sherlock a fighting chance by aiming where she did. Statistically gunshot wound to the liver have a mortality rate of about 10%, which are not bad odds.  She couldn't have known exactly how this will end up and it's not safe by any stretch of imagination but I really don't think she wanted to kill him.  There is a good chance that she nicked the inferior vana cava ( a very big blood vessel) considering how quickly he bled out but my interpretation is that this was unlucky. If she wanted him dead she would have aimed somewhere else.

 
For me it was just too cold, too clinical. She may have decided against blowing his brains out but she still left him bleeding to death, and if he had died, what then? He was just collateral damage?
And this is yet another area where the story falls apart for me - she was ready to take that chance with his life and we're left with the impression that we have to accept what she's done and love her as much as John and Sherlock do, and I find this too much of a stretch.

belis wrote:

Tinks wrote:

For me it was just too cold, too clinical. She may have decided against blowing his brains out but she still left him bleeding to death, and if he had died, what then? He was just collateral damage?
And this is yet another area where the story falls apart for me - she was ready to take that chance with his life and we're left with the impression that we have to accept what she's done and love her as much as John and Sherlock do, and I find this too much of a stretch.

I see Mary as quite a cold and calculating character. I still like her though. I'm not sure if the writers want us to love Mary. She is a very grey character and some will love her, some will hate her and some will just tolerate her. I think that's the intention. We can now have those great threads judging and defending her for next couple of years as we wait for season 4. ;)
 

When it comes to Mary I do think that the writers have left a lot of red flags sticking up which can be construed in very different ways, and provide them with the opportunity to go almost anywhere with the character. They have excluded a Sherlock including the lethal killer nurse wandering around shooting anybody she thinks might be a threat, for the very obvious reason that it would no longer be Sherlock, and I really cannot imagine baby blankets in Baker St amusing Moftiss for more than a few nanoseconds.

I am positive, however, that Moftiss don't expect the majority of viewers to still see Mary as loveable; most of us agree with Mrs Holmes' view of the person who shot her son, and most of us are aware that there are many different kinds of 'love', not all of which include actually loving someone.

Mary certainly seems to be obsessed with John, but that's rather different; I hesitate to proffer any kind of label for this, since this is your territory, not mine, but if John possessed a pet rabbit I wouldn't have given good odds on it surviving had he decided against continuing with Mary

I am fairly sure that there was a connection between CAM which goes beyond the one we know about; once Mary had put a bullet into Sherlock's chest there was no conceivable reason for CAM to leave her alive since he would never know whether she was lining up a scope on his skull. CAM's failure to do that is, I would suggest, similar to the dog which didn't bark in the night; when an intelligent and powerful man, accustomed to destroying people with ease at no personal risk, fails to protect himself from someone who has just demonstrated how easy she finds it to kill by putting a bullet into a guy's chest right in front of him, then there has to be a reason.

We do see that CAM was terrified in that scene, as well he might be, and Mary had just apparently destroyed his route to Mycroft. So, logically, a brief phone call should have followed, and yet it didn't. We had the original link between Moriarty and the tabloid press, CAM controlled a hefty chunk of the tabloid press, and, right at the end of HLV, Moriarty apparently reappears, with Mary suddenly going all scared little woman in her brief exchange with John.

Mary as scared little woman is exceedingly strange...

nakahara wrote:

Personally, I am convinced this was definitely not „surgery“ but murder attempt on Mary′s side.
 
And actually, I am not at all surprised that Mary was revealed as an assassin in HLV. Because if you think about it, there was something off about her from the very start. Canonical ACD Mary Morstan was not that close to Sherlock Holmes yet she treated him with respect and in deference to his abilities. BBC Mary, on the other hand, treated Sherlock as if he was some kind of their family dog, there was generally not a shred of respect for him in her demeanor. When she barked at him „solve it!“ in TSOT, to me it sounded like „sit!“ or „fetch!“ - not exactly a friendly behaviour. She maybe liked Sherlock like you tolerate your pet, but she didn′t give me impression she would mind if he disappeared from her life completely. So it made absolute sense to me when she shot him – suddenly it was clear she was his enemy all the time and that explained her previous strange disregard of Sherlock.
 
Under that mask of fake friendliness she probably feared him like hell. Just imagine being at her place – your boyfriend proposes you, you are sure you can settle down with him and escape your dark past, when unexpectedly that creepy man (who should be dead for two years) pops out of nowhere and inserts himself into your life like some annoying limpet. And he is not only your rival who takes half of John′s heart from you – he is also the most observant man of this world and a detective on top of all that. From that moment it is not just a possibility but a certainty that he will reveal the truth about you very soon.
 
What a luck for Mary that Sherlock was completely sidetracked by John′s violent hysterics that evening and didn′t pay that much attention to her. She was also extremely clever to offer her help to Sherlock, acting like his supporter. If she tried to separate him from John immediately, she would arouse his suspicion much sooner. In that manner she was able to neutralise that danger for some time, yet Sherlock surely was a thorn in her side all along. As was revealed via his mind palace, subconciously he was always aware that she is a liar, he was just momentarily blinded by her apparent frienship.
 
So when he gave her the reason to get rid of him by walking on her in CAM′s office she shot him without much remorse and she aimed to kill.
 
As to why she chose to shoot him into his chest rather than the head – even as an experienced assassin she still could be seen by somebody when leaving CAM′s office and her presence there or her deed could still be revealed to John. In that case she could pretend she just panicked and shot Sherlock accidentaly with no intent to kill him. Headshot would reveal her as a cold-blooded murderer immediately. She was protecting herself not saving Sherlock when she decided to pierce his liver not his head with a bullet. She probably called an ambulance for similar reasons (if she called it at all). And by wounding Sherlock mortally but not killing him on the spot she also bound John to his side, so that John remained with him in CAM′s office and didn′t pursue her.
 
Sherlock′s allegations that Mary saved his life and that she „performed surgery“ on him are deliberate lies. Sherlock knows all too well that Mary intended to kill him: every vision he has in his mind palace and every person inhabiting his inner world assure him that he will die (and he dies indeed). While in hospital he has scary visions about her and she even threatens him in person: „Sherlock, don′t tell John...“ Every single thing tells him that Mary will try again and finish him off, this time for real.
 
It is for his own safety as well as John′s when he reveals Mary′s true face in Leicester Gardens to John. She has no further reason to make attempt on his life anymore if John knows the truth. And John is now informed about the danger arising from Mary, thus being able to see her for what she really is and defend himself if necessary.
 
Sherlock then deliberately shields Mary by claiming that she saved his life. By that deed he gives John a chance to decide if he wants to continue his marrige, but he is not influencing him with the fact that his wife shot his best friend. He probably also feels some pity for Mary who stupidly alienated him when it would be wiser to ask for his help.  
 
(Personally, I think writers used the plot of canonical „Adventure of the Second Stain“ here. Lady Hilda, a heroine of that story, stole an important government document from her husband and gave it to the blackmailer because „her husband would stop loving her if he knew about her past“ (some compromising letter). She is abhorrently selfish in this, because the stolen document could cause war with ten thousands victims and its disappearance could also destroy her husbands career. But Lady Hilda apparently sets her own happiness over all that. Holmes finally forces her to give up the document restored from the blackmailer but after that he takes pity on her and sneakily returns the document into her husband′s dispatch box. He then lies to the husband that nothing at all happened and that the document was in husband′s possession all the time. If Holmes told him the truth he would irreparably damage his marriage and probably end his career anyway. Sherlock however, althrough he appears cold and calculating, is much more compasionate than people generally think.)
 

Hear, hear. :-) Nice comment. 

I'm really not seeing this guys...
Obviously we were given clues, with the ' liar' and her knowing a skip code...
But otherwise I see her treating Sherlock better than John does.

Last edited by besleybean (February 23, 2014 8:38 am)

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

nakahara wrote:

Personally, I am convinced this was definitely not „surgery“ but murder attempt on Mary′s side.
 
And actually, I am not at all surprised that Mary was revealed as an assassin in HLV. Because if you think about it, there was something off about her from the very start. Canonical ACD Mary Morstan was not that close to Sherlock Holmes yet she treated him with respect and in deference to his abilities. BBC Mary, on the other hand, treated Sherlock as if he was some kind of their family dog, there was generally not a shred of respect for him in her demeanor. When she barked at him „solve it!“ in TSOT, to me it sounded like „sit!“ or „fetch!“ - not exactly a friendly behaviour. She maybe liked Sherlock like you tolerate your pet, but she didn′t give me impression she would mind if he disappeared from her life completely. So it made absolute sense to me when she shot him – suddenly it was clear she was his enemy all the time and that explained her previous strange disregard of Sherlock.
 
Under that mask of fake friendliness she probably feared him like hell. Just imagine being at her place – your boyfriend proposes you, you are sure you can settle down with him and escape your dark past, when unexpectedly that creepy man (who should be dead for two years) pops out of nowhere and inserts himself into your life like some annoying limpet. And he is not only your rival who takes half of John′s heart from you – he is also the most observant man of this world and a detective on top of all that. From that moment it is not just a possibility but a certainty that he will reveal the truth about you very soon.
 
What a luck for Mary that Sherlock was completely sidetracked by John′s violent hysterics that evening and didn′t pay that much attention to her. She was also extremely clever to offer her help to Sherlock, acting like his supporter. If she tried to separate him from John immediately, she would arouse his suspicion much sooner. In that manner she was able to neutralise that danger for some time, yet Sherlock surely was a thorn in her side all along. As was revealed via his mind palace, subconciously he was always aware that she is a liar, he was just momentarily blinded by her apparent frienship.
 
So when he gave her the reason to get rid of him by walking on her in CAM′s office she shot him without much remorse and she aimed to kill.
 
As to why she chose to shoot him into his chest rather than the head – even as an experienced assassin she still could be seen by somebody when leaving CAM′s office and her presence there or her deed could still be revealed to John. In that case she could pretend she just panicked and shot Sherlock accidentaly with no intent to kill him. Headshot would reveal her as a cold-blooded murderer immediately. She was protecting herself not saving Sherlock when she decided to pierce his liver not his head with a bullet. She probably called an ambulance for similar reasons (if she called it at all). And by wounding Sherlock mortally but not killing him on the spot she also bound John to his side, so that John remained with him in CAM′s office and didn′t pursue her.
 
Sherlock′s allegations that Mary saved his life and that she „performed surgery“ on him are deliberate lies. Sherlock knows all too well that Mary intended to kill him: every vision he has in his mind palace and every person inhabiting his inner world assure him that he will die (and he dies indeed). While in hospital he has scary visions about her and she even threatens him in person: „Sherlock, don′t tell John...“ Every single thing tells him that Mary will try again and finish him off, this time for real.
 
It is for his own safety as well as John′s when he reveals Mary′s true face in Leicester Gardens to John. She has no further reason to make attempt on his life anymore if John knows the truth. And John is now informed about the danger arising from Mary, thus being able to see her for what she really is and defend himself if necessary.
 
Sherlock then deliberately shields Mary by claiming that she saved his life. By that deed he gives John a chance to decide if he wants to continue his marrige, but he is not influencing him with the fact that his wife shot his best friend. He probably also feels some pity for Mary who stupidly alienated him when it would be wiser to ask for his help.  
 
(Personally, I think writers used the plot of canonical „Adventure of the Second Stain“ here. Lady Hilda, a heroine of that story, stole an important government document from her husband and gave it to the blackmailer because „her husband would stop loving her if he knew about her past“ (some compromising letter). She is abhorrently selfish in this, because the stolen document could cause war with ten thousands victims and its disappearance could also destroy her husbands career. But Lady Hilda apparently sets her own happiness over all that. Holmes finally forces her to give up the document restored from the blackmailer but after that he takes pity on her and sneakily returns the document into her husband′s dispatch box. He then lies to the husband that nothing at all happened and that the document was in husband′s possession all the time. If Holmes told him the truth he would irreparably damage his marriage and probably end his career anyway. Sherlock however, althrough he appears cold and calculating, is much more compasionate than people generally think.)
 

Hear, hear. :-) Nice comment. 

I enjoyed this post too and it makes perfect sense apart from one aspect.

If Sherlock knew that Mary had tried to kill him, that she really was that dangerous and would stop at nothing to get what she wanted, why the hell would he allow his best friend to stay with her?
 

As the coin incident demonstrated rather graphically.

Sherlock Holmes wrote:

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

nakahara wrote:

Personally, I am convinced this was definitely not „surgery“ but murder attempt on Mary′s side.
 
And actually, I am not at all surprised that Mary was revealed as an assassin in HLV. Because if you think about it, there was something off about her from the very start. Canonical ACD Mary Morstan was not that close to Sherlock Holmes yet she treated him with respect and in deference to his abilities. BBC Mary, on the other hand, treated Sherlock as if he was some kind of their family dog, there was generally not a shred of respect for him in her demeanor. When she barked at him „solve it!“ in TSOT, to me it sounded like „sit!“ or „fetch!“ - not exactly a friendly behaviour. She maybe liked Sherlock like you tolerate your pet, but she didn′t give me impression she would mind if he disappeared from her life completely. So it made absolute sense to me when she shot him – suddenly it was clear she was his enemy all the time and that explained her previous strange disregard of Sherlock.
 
Under that mask of fake friendliness she probably feared him like hell. Just imagine being at her place – your boyfriend proposes you, you are sure you can settle down with him and escape your dark past, when unexpectedly that creepy man (who should be dead for two years) pops out of nowhere and inserts himself into your life like some annoying limpet. And he is not only your rival who takes half of John′s heart from you – he is also the most observant man of this world and a detective on top of all that. From that moment it is not just a possibility but a certainty that he will reveal the truth about you very soon.
 
What a luck for Mary that Sherlock was completely sidetracked by John′s violent hysterics that evening and didn′t pay that much attention to her. She was also extremely clever to offer her help to Sherlock, acting like his supporter. If she tried to separate him from John immediately, she would arouse his suspicion much sooner. In that manner she was able to neutralise that danger for some time, yet Sherlock surely was a thorn in her side all along. As was revealed via his mind palace, subconciously he was always aware that she is a liar, he was just momentarily blinded by her apparent frienship.
 
So when he gave her the reason to get rid of him by walking on her in CAM′s office she shot him without much remorse and she aimed to kill.
 
As to why she chose to shoot him into his chest rather than the head – even as an experienced assassin she still could be seen by somebody when leaving CAM′s office and her presence there or her deed could still be revealed to John. In that case she could pretend she just panicked and shot Sherlock accidentaly with no intent to kill him. Headshot would reveal her as a cold-blooded murderer immediately. She was protecting herself not saving Sherlock when she decided to pierce his liver not his head with a bullet. She probably called an ambulance for similar reasons (if she called it at all). And by wounding Sherlock mortally but not killing him on the spot she also bound John to his side, so that John remained with him in CAM′s office and didn′t pursue her.
 
Sherlock′s allegations that Mary saved his life and that she „performed surgery“ on him are deliberate lies. Sherlock knows all too well that Mary intended to kill him: every vision he has in his mind palace and every person inhabiting his inner world assure him that he will die (and he dies indeed). While in hospital he has scary visions about her and she even threatens him in person: „Sherlock, don′t tell John...“ Every single thing tells him that Mary will try again and finish him off, this time for real.
 
It is for his own safety as well as John′s when he reveals Mary′s true face in Leicester Gardens to John. She has no further reason to make attempt on his life anymore if John knows the truth. And John is now informed about the danger arising from Mary, thus being able to see her for what she really is and defend himself if necessary.
 
Sherlock then deliberately shields Mary by claiming that she saved his life. By that deed he gives John a chance to decide if he wants to continue his marrige, but he is not influencing him with the fact that his wife shot his best friend. He probably also feels some pity for Mary who stupidly alienated him when it would be wiser to ask for his help.  
 
(Personally, I think writers used the plot of canonical „Adventure of the Second Stain“ here. Lady Hilda, a heroine of that story, stole an important government document from her husband and gave it to the blackmailer because „her husband would stop loving her if he knew about her past“ (some compromising letter). She is abhorrently selfish in this, because the stolen document could cause war with ten thousands victims and its disappearance could also destroy her husbands career. But Lady Hilda apparently sets her own happiness over all that. Holmes finally forces her to give up the document restored from the blackmailer but after that he takes pity on her and sneakily returns the document into her husband′s dispatch box. He then lies to the husband that nothing at all happened and that the document was in husband′s possession all the time. If Holmes told him the truth he would irreparably damage his marriage and probably end his career anyway. Sherlock however, althrough he appears cold and calculating, is much more compasionate than people generally think.)
 

Hear, hear. :-) Nice comment. 

I enjoyed this post too and it makes perfect sense apart from one aspect.

If Sherlock knew that Mary had tried to kill him, that she really was that dangerous and would stop at nothing to get what she wanted, why the hell would he allow his best friend to stay with her?
 

My answer to that would be that John loves her and Sherlock believes that Mary loves John and would never hurt him.
In Sherlock's mind it's not about what she did to him - that doesn't matter. It's about John being made to be happy again with his wife and child, and not suffering loss again.
I don't believe for one moment that he'd have persuaded John to stay with her if he though she was a danger to John.
 

Sherlock Holmes wrote:

Ok yeah, I can buy that. She's not a threat to John because she does genuinely love him.

She seems genuinely nice to Sherlock at the end of the ep though...that confused me a little. Maybe it's because she is grateful for everything Sherlock has done for her and feels like she owes him now.

 
Well if that's the case that she's grateful, and if she's going to be a regular feature with no further mention made of her having nearly killed Sherlock, then that's the best I'll hope for - that she'll be warmer to him in future.
At the time I thought she was being nice to him because she'd never have to see him again, though!