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February 14, 2014 12:38 am  #161


Re: John? Out of character?

Michele wrote:

MahnSherlolly03 wrote:

I think Mary's on really shaky ground. I don't think she really knows what she's doing. She should have known better than to:
keep her stupid assassian outfit
wear claire-de-la-lun on the day she might have to go kill CAM
try to do any of that crap while she was pregnant
shoot Sherlock (at least in the place that she shot him)
try to intimidate Sherlock

I mean, gosh, Mary. I thought you were meant to be clever.

Sorry I feel like I need to defend Mary a bit here:
-She probably held onto her assassian gear in case someone from her past caught up with her... or she just popped down to the local army depot store.
-She more than likely worked that morning so would have worn the perfume then. After you wear perfume long enough you don't really smell it on yourself but other people can still smell it on you.
-She was scared that John would find out the truth so she felt like she had to other choice but to break into CAM's office. Also being pregnant isn't debilitating (especially in the early stages) so it wouldn't have effected her.
-She never planned to kill Sherlock. Just knock him out of the game for a bit. Like Sherlock said - if she killed him then CAM, John would be the main suspect. If she killed Sherlock and just injured CAM that wouldn't stop him releasing what he knew (and remember at this time everyone thought there was phyical evidence rather than mindpalace evidence). Wounding Sherlock and knocking CAM out was her best option at the time.
-Mary knew that Sherlock cared a lot for John so she was banking on Sherlock not wanting to hurt John. Also Sherlock now knew Mary was a trained killer so obviously he had to be careful. She didn't bank on John doing some deductions of his own.

I think she knew what she was doing but she was in a desperate place. She didn't want to lose John, whom she loved greatly, and didn't see any other option if CAM came out with details of her past.

Wow, I'm impressed that someone is more defensive of her than I am. That's not a bad thing, btw.

-Okay, that makes sense. Still a bit weird, but it makes sense.
-That makes a lot of sense.
-Okay, but did she have to shoot him where she did? She actually killed him; he only came back to life because he loves her husband more than life or death.
-Again, I see your point, but why could she not have said "Sherlock, please don't tell him." It would have had the same affect. Either way, Sherlock cares deeply about both Mary and John and would end up doing what he ended up doing. And from Mary's POV, she should know he's at least as likely to protect John from the truth if she begs as if she commands.

I'm just not quite sure I can forgive her for making a calculated choice to incapacitate Sherlock and then threaten him again and again just so she won't be exposed to John.
 


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February 14, 2014 1:09 am  #162


Re: John? Out of character?

Yep. I'm a bit defensive of her!
I guess the thing with her shooting Sherlock is that yes the wound was serious. And yes he did die for a minute but she did call the ambulance. She did gravely wound him but I have to assume that her past experience has taught her how to balance the line between killing and incapacitating someone.
I don't think she could have just said 'please don't tell him.' Firstly because I don't think Sherlock would have quickly accepted it and she had to act quickly - remember John is in the other room. And secondly, if she pistol whipped CAM (because she couldn't leave him standing) then ran John would think that Sherlock did it. But I agree that she was panicked so perhaps given more time she would have come to a better conclusion but time wasn't on her side.


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February 14, 2014 1:37 am  #163


Re: John? Out of character?

Here's my thing with trying to just sweep Mary's trangressions under the rug--  

If you love someone, you don't "protect your relationship" by shooting somebody. There's this romantic idea that because Mary's in love with John, it excuses any and all of her actions, including shooting (and very nearly killing) Sherlock, John's best friend. 

It's an extremely unhealthy way of rationalizing one's behavior. I don't like the message that it gives women; pregnancy, love, fear of being found out, none of those are excuses for harming someone else. 

It's a narcissistic type of "love", and I can't condone it. Has anyone thought about what she might do if she thought she'd lost John? If all that matters to her is "protecting the relationship", John could be in danger, himself. 

I know people are really invested in liking Mary, excusing her actions, trying hard to make her actions acceptable, but the writers have done the fans a real disservice here, if they wanted people to just dispense with all common sense and go, "Oh, but she's really a nice person, so we can just pretend all that stuff about being an ex-assassin, and shooting Sherlock, ad threatening him, ... well that doesn't really matter, she did it out of love.."  

Here's why I'm probably a little strident about this; I counsel a lot of women (and men) who on a less dramtic scale, do this kind of thing-- and they think it's perfectly okay. As long as love is the motivator, all's fair in love and war-- and they destroy ever relationship they get into because they are absolutley ruthless when it comes to "protecting their relationship". 

But this is only my take on it-- feel free to ignore my wailings.... :-)

 

February 14, 2014 1:45 am  #164


Re: John? Out of character?

Michele wrote:

Yep. I'm a bit defensive of her!
I guess the thing with her shooting Sherlock is that yes the wound was serious. And yes he did die for a minute but she did call the ambulance. She did gravely wound him but I have to assume that her past experience has taught her how to balance the line between killing and incapacitating someone.
I don't think she could have just said 'please don't tell him.' Firstly because I don't think Sherlock would have quickly accepted it and she had to act quickly - remember John is in the other room. And secondly, if she pistol whipped CAM (because she couldn't leave him standing) then ran John would think that Sherlock did it. But I agree that she was panicked so perhaps given more time she would have come to a better conclusion but time wasn't on her side.

Well, I'm glad someone else loves her. But I can't help agreeing a bit with the last post. The only way I can really accept what Mary did to some degree is to allow that she was a bit crazy at the time. I mean, she absolutely did not have to nearly kill Sherlock to ensure his silence.

And if I had a spouse, they would not get away with this crap.

 


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February 14, 2014 2:11 am  #165


Re: John? Out of character?

I agree that she was pretty desperate at the time and acted pretty rashly but I think she saw it as her only option.
And I mean like Sherlock points out, John is attracted to danger whether he wants to admit it or not.
 


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February 14, 2014 2:16 am  #166


Re: John? Out of character?

Yeah, but that doesn't mean he wants his wife to send his best friend back to an early grave.


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February 14, 2014 2:51 am  #167


Re: John? Out of character?

John didn't forgive her straight away and even once he did he admitted he'd still get upset about it sometimes.
Sherlock was cool with it though so that probably helped! http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/tongue.png


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February 14, 2014 3:54 am  #168


Re: John? Out of character?

Michele wrote:

John didn't forgive her straight away and even once he did he admitted he'd still get upset about it sometimes.
Sherlock was cool with it though so that probably helped! http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/tongue.png

Sherlock may be the *last* person whose judgment can be trusted on this. He has a tendency to make some very questionable decisions on John's behalf. I think he believes that Mary, who will kill to protect John, is best for John; she can give him the life he says he wants, where Sherlock cannot. And John, though he says he forgives Sherlock, obviously hasn't, by his actions. If Mary thinks she's forgiven, I suspect that she's badly mistaken; this may be more about the child, than the mother. 

 

February 14, 2014 4:34 am  #169


Re: John? Out of character?

He may be the last person but he's the first for John. John trusts Sherlock.
I also don't think it's because of the baby that John forgave Mary. He truly loved her.
Like it or not John is addicted the 'a certain type of lifestyle' and Mary fits that.

 


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February 14, 2014 1:45 pm  #170


Re: John? Out of character?

Michele wrote:

He may be the last person but he's the first for John. John trusts Sherlock.
I also don't think it's because of the baby that John forgave Mary. He truly loved her.
Like it or not John is addicted the 'a certain type of lifestyle' and Mary fits that.

 

But it doesn't work. Mary is only exciting when she's doing something exciting; clearly their month of domestic bliss has not included Mary being exciting since John's bored out of his mind. So when she says she will keep John in trouble it's an impossible promise; she can't keep shooting people so John will get his adrenaline fix, and she's not going to be able to set up in business as an investigator because, even if she had the skills, she would be placing herself in a public spotlight where the people who want her dead are far more likely to identify her...
 

 

February 15, 2014 2:33 am  #171


Re: John? Out of character?

Ozma wrote:

OK so let me recap this, John nearly died himself from the pain of seeing Sherlock jump to his death, then pined for him for 2 years - now Sherlock tells him  that it's unlikely that they'll ever meet again, and he has no reactions at all??

Didn't this seem a bit weird? Was John so attached to him before only because he had no one else??

I see Ozma's point. But I feel more strongly about not liking / buying / agreeing with John's reactions after Sherlock is shot, as I have said.

I actually thought that John's saying, "The game is over" said a lot. It COULD suggest that he will miss "the game" more than Sherlock himself, but somehow, I didn't think so. 

And I, too, was struck by the timing: he kind of JUST got Sherlock back. And after Sherlock got his name cleared, he actually destroys his own good name through his own actions.

But on the other hand, it's possible that given what John now has seen and knows about Sherlock, he is able to hope that Sherlock will come out alive.

 

February 17, 2014 12:58 am  #172


Re: John? Out of character?

I kinda got the feeling that John has written Sherlock off, as a much loved part of his life, whose time has passed.  He definitley seemed more shocked that Sherlock murdered Magnussen-- so, maybe he figured that Sherlock ws getting off light, and anyway, he has his own muderer and child to deal with. :-)

 

February 17, 2014 1:35 am  #173


Re: John? Out of character?

Expecting Sherlock/John to already have the huge and wonderful relationship they have in canon and we know they are going to have before the events that formed it happen , actually happen is a mistake.
At the end of TRF John is sad and mourning yes ,in the graveyard scene, but I don't see a totally devastated emotionally crippled man..he mourns and misses Sherlock loads but he does eventually get on with his life.
Sherlocks return and the events of series three eventually bring them closer together. TRF is dealt with and over by the end of TEH. In TSOT as a duo they are better than they were before.
John is confused and OOC in HLV because he is realising that the person he clicks with and the person he loves best and what makes him happy..is not some wife and a kid and a quiet life in the burbs...its adventures with Sherlock.
John is all over the place..torn between Sherlock first ( heart) and Mary first (head).

Sherlock already knows the only person he clicks with and loves is John..thats why he trys to do whats best for John and not himself.
Maybe Sherlock learnt from actually dieing this time..that he actually doesn't want to die ..he has a reason to live ..and it's not just cases..its cases with John.

Everyone and everything is stalemated atm tho..by the baby issue.
Thats why Sherlock manipulates the marriage reunion.
Thats why John can't face Marys truths.
Likely thats why Mycroft hasn't tipped lestade to the shooters ID.

A lot of the OOC  John is annoying and hard to understand and I think we all really feel for Sherlock this series which exasperates it.

However it is going through all theese times together..good and bad ..that will lead us to the /endgame and the fantastic "us against the world" inseperable symbiotic combo seen in canon.
We have seen the relationship grow and grow and yes heres a rocky patch or two but...My guess is we are almost there.

Last edited by lil (February 17, 2014 1:40 am)

 

February 17, 2014 1:46 am  #174


Re: John? Out of character?

Ah. I am so scared. I don't want Mary and the baby to die, I don't want Sherlock and Molly to keep looking at each other like they have been without something happening, but I *do* want my boys back in their place. Not the pysical locoation they resided in, but the close friendship that was steadily growing.

I really really wish there was a happy medium, but I don't think there is.


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February 17, 2014 2:06 am  #175


Re: John? Out of character?

Do she and baby die in canon? I've just started reading them having come to Dharkock thi December and rapidly watching and rewatching all three seasons in just a couple weeks time.

I thought I had read online that she dies in child birth but then read on some posts here about her just disappearing.

I wasn't sure and haven't investigated much bc I don't want to end up reading plots of books I haven't made it to you yet.

However even in canon- I believe it's Scandal in Belgrave that starts out saying after the wedding Watson and Sherlock lose touch and a distance forms between after wedding due to the setting up of house and such.

So despite all the angst here- the strained relationship is straight out of canon and honestly true to real world relationships.


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February 17, 2014 2:51 am  #176


Re: John? Out of character?

Wiggins wrote:

Do she and baby die in canon? I've just started reading them having come to Dharkock thi December and rapidly watching and rewatching all three seasons in just a couple weeks time.

I thought I had read online that she dies in child birth but then read on some posts here about her just disappearing.

I wasn't sure and haven't investigated much bc I don't want to end up reading plots of books I haven't made it to you yet.

However even in canon- I believe it's Scandal in Belgrave that starts out saying after the wedding Watson and Sherlock lose touch and a distance forms between after wedding due to the setting up of house and such.

So despite all the angst here- the strained relationship is straight out of canon and honestly true to real world relationships.

Yes, there is a mention in canon of the wedding putting some distance between them. Watson says this; however, there are multiple instances of him jumping when Holmes calls - and going away with him and/or spending the night with him, either at the location of the case, or sometimes even at Baker Street, when there's theoretically no reason he couldn't go home for the night. Also, Holmes' excuses for needing him are often flimsy. And sometimes Holmes turns up at the Watson house in the middle of the night, asks if he can stay over and have Watson go with him on a case in the morning...and Watson seems to sit up with him most of the night.

There are also times Watson drifts toward Baker Street and visits Holmes for no apparent reason (Holmes will be on a case, but Watson doesn't know that when he shows up.)

There is no actual mention of a baby in canon - just of Mary having died before Holmes comes back from Hiatus. And there's a sense of their relationship being stronger after he gets back - Watson moves back to Baker Street and gives up his own practice.

 

February 17, 2014 4:05 am  #177


Re: John? Out of character?

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:

Wiggins wrote:

Do she and baby die in canon? I've just started reading them having come to Dharkock thi December and rapidly watching and rewatching all three seasons in just a couple weeks time.

I thought I had read online that she dies in child birth but then read on some posts here about her just disappearing.

I wasn't sure and haven't investigated much bc I don't want to end up reading plots of books I haven't made it to you yet.

However even in canon- I believe it's Scandal in Belgrave that starts out saying after the wedding Watson and Sherlock lose touch and a distance forms between after wedding due to the setting up of house and such.

So despite all the angst here- the strained relationship is straight out of canon and honestly true to real world relationships.

Yes, there is a mention in canon of the wedding putting some distance between them. Watson says this; however, there are multiple instances of him jumping when Holmes calls - and going away with him and/or spending the night with him, either at the location of the case, or sometimes even at Baker Street, when there's theoretically no reason he couldn't go home for the night. Also, Holmes' excuses for needing him are often flimsy. And sometimes Holmes turns up at the Watson house in the middle of the night, asks if he can stay over and have Watson go with him on a case in the morning...and Watson seems to sit up with him most of the night.

There are also times Watson drifts toward Baker Street and visits Holmes for no apparent reason (Holmes will be on a case, but Watson doesn't know that when he shows up.)

There is no actual mention of a baby in canon - just of Mary having died before Holmes comes back from Hiatus. And there's a sense of their relationship being stronger after he gets back - Watson moves back to Baker Street and gives up his own practice.

I don't think Mary's death is touched too much on in canon. It's almost a passing comment. But that wouldn't work for the series. 'Where's Mary?' 'Oh... dead... on with the deductions!'


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February 17, 2014 10:15 am  #178


Re: John? Out of character?

Michele wrote:

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:

Wiggins wrote:

Do she and baby die in canon? I've just started reading them having come to Dharkock thi December and rapidly watching and rewatching all three seasons in just a couple weeks time.

I thought I had read online that she dies in child birth but then read on some posts here about her just disappearing.

I wasn't sure and haven't investigated much bc I don't want to end up reading plots of books I haven't made it to you yet.

However even in canon- I believe it's Scandal in Belgrave that starts out saying after the wedding Watson and Sherlock lose touch and a distance forms between after wedding due to the setting up of house and such.

So despite all the angst here- the strained relationship is straight out of canon and honestly true to real world relationships.

Yes, there is a mention in canon of the wedding putting some distance between them. Watson says this; however, there are multiple instances of him jumping when Holmes calls - and going away with him and/or spending the night with him, either at the location of the case, or sometimes even at Baker Street, when there's theoretically no reason he couldn't go home for the night. Also, Holmes' excuses for needing him are often flimsy. And sometimes Holmes turns up at the Watson house in the middle of the night, asks if he can stay over and have Watson go with him on a case in the morning...and Watson seems to sit up with him most of the night.

There are also times Watson drifts toward Baker Street and visits Holmes for no apparent reason (Holmes will be on a case, but Watson doesn't know that when he shows up.)

There is no actual mention of a baby in canon - just of Mary having died before Holmes comes back from Hiatus. And there's a sense of their relationship being stronger after he gets back - Watson moves back to Baker Street and gives up his own practice.

I don't think Mary's death is touched too much on in canon. It's almost a passing comment. But that wouldn't work for the series. 'Where's Mary?' 'Oh... dead... on with the deductions!'

 
And to make the conspiracy theoretics run amok it actually doesn't say that Mary is dead, the only reference is that Holmes offers Watson his condolences for "[Watson's] sad bereavement." and states that "work is the best antidote to grief."
This is taken by most to mean that Mary has died, but alternate theories are that:
a) it is a baby who died, possibly during birth, and Mary is reconvalselsing somewhere.
b) Mary has been admitted to an asylum. (This would explain the mentions of a wife later in the Canon stories. That is the wife isn't a new one, but that Watson takes up living with Mary when she is out of the asylum and lives with Holmes in the intervals where she is committed).
c) That Watson and Mary has divorced each.other. While divorce wasn't easy to achieve in the Victorian era it wasn't entirely impossible.


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February 17, 2014 10:43 pm  #179


Re: John? Out of character?

lil wrote:

Expecting Sherlock/John to already have the huge and wonderful relationship they have in canon and we know they are going to have before the events that formed it happen , actually happen is a mistake.
At the end of TRF John is sad and mourning yes ,in the graveyard scene, but I don't see a totally devastated emotionally crippled man..he mourns and misses Sherlock loads but he does eventually get on with his life.
Sherlocks return and the events of series three eventually bring them closer together. TRF is dealt with and over by the end of TEH. In TSOT as a duo they are better than they were before.
John is confused and OOC in HLV because he is realising that the person he clicks with and the person he loves best and what makes him happy..is not some wife and a kid and a quiet life in the burbs...its adventures with Sherlock.
John is all over the place..torn between Sherlock first ( heart) and Mary first (head).

Sherlock already knows the only person he clicks with and loves is John..thats why he trys to do whats best for John and not himself.
Maybe Sherlock learnt from actually dieing this time..that he actually doesn't want to die ..he has a reason to live ..and it's not just cases..its cases with John.

Everyone and everything is stalemated atm tho..by the baby issue.
Thats why Sherlock manipulates the marriage reunion.
Thats why John can't face Marys truths.
Likely thats why Mycroft hasn't tipped lestade to the shooters ID.

A lot of the OOC John is annoying and hard to understand and I think we all really feel for Sherlock this series which exasperates it.

However it is going through all theese times together..good and bad ..that will lead us to the /endgame and the fantastic "us against the world" inseperable symbiotic combo seen in canon.
We have seen the relationship grow and grow and yes heres a rocky patch or two but...My guess is we are almost there.

I'm not sure it's so much John being out of character as the fact that throughout Season 3 he shifts back and forth in ways that don't seem logical (and no, I know feelings aren't logical, but):

 - despite praying for a miracle of Sherlock being alive he's initially more angry than anything else when Sherlock reveals himself and at least makes a show of writing Sherlock off in TEH. The anger is understandable, but I would like to have seen SOME happiness that Sherlock is alive.

- he forgives Sherlock because he believes they are both going to die for real. When this turns out to be a trick of Sherlock's however, the forgiveness appears to stick...we never see him bawl Sherlock out for the trick (on the train), and in fact, we get the impression that he forgive Sherlock in part BECAUSE of that scene, even though it was a trick.

- TSoT is all about them reaffirming their friendship and saying how much they mean to each other. You feel like the Hiatus is mostly behind them, as far as John is concerned. Sherlock is afraid of losing John because John is getting married but he handles it pretty maturely, and seems to view saving Major Sholto as part of atoning for hurting John. John seems to want to reassure Sherlock that his fears of losing him are unfounded.

- in HLV, we see John at his angriest at Sherlock at a time when Sherlock is doing his utmost for John and John's family. It seems like John blames Sherlock for the fact that John ended up married to someone who is...what Mary is. And the fact that Sherlock almost died doesn't seem to be John's primary concern.

Unless you believe that John's anger over the disappearance / Hiatus was buried and just re-surfaced at a seemingly-unlikely time?

I can see the timing issue from John's point of view: he is addicted to the lifestyle with Sherlock but thought Mary would represent a safer lifestyle, which he could have to. Finding out that she was essentially the same as Sherlock was too much. But why is that part Sherlock's fault? Would John have wanted Sherlock to warn him? Don't you think, if Sherlock had tried, John would have written it off as Sherlock feeling threatened?

 

February 18, 2014 7:25 am  #180


Re: John? Out of character?

Yep, Sherlock can't win with goldfish John.
Sherlock just has to let John flap about a bit, until he finally settles down.


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