miriel68 wrote:

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

On one hand-- series 3 had Sherlock finally learning to put others first; but then we're being told that he hasn't changed at all-- he shot CAM out of ego????

It's schizophrenic writing. 

LOL, I don't think so. These two motivations actually coexist and are perfectly in line with Sherlock's personality. Yes, he learnt to value the others (John) more then himself - but he really learnt it before, didn't it? In TGG Moriarty already knew that S. has "heart" and in TRF he was willing to risk his life in order to save his friends (jumping from a rooftop of a hospital is definitely NOT a safe thing to do, even with an air-cushion waiting for you). So, he definitely did it for John.Nevertheless his ego is just fine, thank you: to accept passively that he had been beaten by M. because of HIS OWN MISTAKE? Never. Not Sherlock we know.

Oh, thank you! I'm feeling better now. 

Seriously, though, Sherlock looked... well, kind of broken, defeated, and like he had a running commentary running through his head-- "How could I have been such an idiot, I've ruined everything, " Just before he shot CAM. So, it may have been the ultimate penance.  He, once again, failed because of his Achilles' heel; he always makes things more complicated than they really are. So, what he settled for instead was a Pyrric victory, instead. 

lil wrote:

miriel68 wrote:

I found interesting what BC said during Apple Store Q&A: that S. shot M. because he was outsmarted by him. Yes, of course it was a sacrifice and he was thinking about John etc. etc. but I think B. is right about it: there is some dark motivation about what Sherlock did, as well.

 
Yes I agreee, Sherlock was desperate to win this game , he had everything on the line. What smarts couldn't do the gun did.
Sherlock had that plan anyway I think..asking John to bring the gun. 

I've been wondering why he didn't take Mary along too. Seems like she would have been a valuable ally in a situation like this...unless Sherlock had reason to believe she wouldn't be an ally. Maybe things could have been manipulated so she would do the killing..

I don't think Sherlock and John in this universe necessarily have old-fashioned ideas about keeping women out of confrontations or dangerous situations. Of course, there is the fact that Mary is pregnant...but doesn't it seem like drugging her was taking a risk with regard to the baby?

And couldn't they have told her where they were going, even if they didn't take her along? She might have insisted on going, I suppose.
 

Willow wrote:

Swanpride wrote:

Because Mary was in her last stages of pregnancy and could barely move (never mind the danger for the unborn)? Why making her worry about John by telling her beforehand? I guess the drugging was Sherlock's system to ensure that everyone would be safe and out of the way. He even left a drug addict to monitor them. That's positively thoughtful for him.

 
Oddly enough, I have been blown up in the last stages of pregnancy, and I did not feel the slightest desire to kill;. not even the guy who blew us up. So I really don't think that your hypothesis stands up...

\

Thank you for the cackle of the evening! Snork!
 

Tee Hee.

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:

Willow wrote:

miriel68 wrote:

Also, because Sherlock realized that he would never be able to free John & Mary from Magnussen's threat AND that he just handed M. the leverage on Mycroft he had been trying to get for such a long time.

It just struck me, that S. waited to shoot M. when the helicopter & special forces were in sight, because he wanted it to be absolutely clear that John is not involved in the murder. He could have "dealt" with M. in a more discreet way but in that case John would be almost certainly be considered his accomplice and Mary's past would be also investigated by the police.

Indeed so; this is why I disagree strongly with the interpretation that Sherlock 'broke' because CAM was nasty to John. Sherlock didn't break at all...
 

I understand that John wasn't really "involved" in the shooting -  there was no plan to kill CAM when they went to Appledore (at least, they didn't discuss one), and that Sherlock was the only actual shooter - but I can imagine many prosecutors (or whoever represents "The Law") prosecuting John as well: often if there are two people on the scene together, especially in the case of a break-in, and only one shoots, the other will be treated as an accomplice.

And I question whether Mary is really safe: what about the "people" CAM could have "called on"? Has he left any instructions for them?

Honestly, I'd be very suprised if in Season 4, Mary, John and the baby's lives aren't endangered because of the past coming back to haunt Mary. They've kind of already set that up. 

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:

Harriet wrote:

It's like the writers went too far, right?

Yes, I think there were ways to make Mary one of the many people CAM had something on, something that could expose her to danger or criminal charges, (she could even have WITNESSED a murder in the past and been more or less in hiding, and there could have been a possibility that CAM could twist the story to make her APPEAR the criminal) without making her a professional assassin and CERTAINLY without making her shoot Sherlock.

That said, whatever WE might think of the CIA morally - John and Sherlock aren't in a much of a position to judge her morally - I'm not saying they are "exactly the same" as her, but certainly there are parallels with the work they do.

And aren't the British and US governments generally seen to be on the same side, militarily and politically speaking? I bet Mycroft knows where to find people like Mary to use in the name of the British government...

And there are series' where US and British Secret Agents (some female) are, if not the "good guys," protagonists and the ones we are set up to "root" for: James Bond; Max and 99; Steed and Peel. Even if we had been told Mary was "a spy" or "an undercover operative," instead of the emphasis on the killing angle, she would come across very differently - even if really underneath it's the same thing.

And I think it's interesting that they completely avoided the OTHER potential moral dilemma for Sherlock:  If Mary were killed, arrested, or had to disappear, that would mean Sherlock would have John all to himself again. He never seems tempted by this angle.
 

And there is one of the biggest problems, here; Mary's selfish love VS Sherlock's selfless love. 

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:

On the flip side, why is Mycroft so unable to condone the shooting of CAM, given the kind of intelligence work he's involved in? Why was Sherlock's killing CAM so much of a stretch for Mycroft?

In real life, yes, it should be prosecuted as murder, but it seems like it's not that much of a stretch for what's condoned in this 'verse, particularly given how many people high-up would have been glad to see CAM gone...and I think it's being hinted that he associated with Moriarty (who physically killed people) but we still have to find that out.

Sherlock is something of a "private citizen who takes the law into their own hands" - but he also kind of works under the auspices of the police and government.

I wonder if Mycroft was more upset that Sherlock did it in front of witnesses?

I wasn't sure whether to start a new thread or bump this one, but I'll bump it because of all the interesting stuff.  There's a discussion a little further back about whether Mary was hired by Mycroft to spy on Sherlock.   When I first watched it, I thought it was just a lucky coincidence that Mycroft wasn't at the wedding and so didn't see who the bridesmaid was.  If he'd seen it was Janine, he'd have guessed that Mary was trying to make a connection to Magnusson.  Sherlock is very careful about hiding Janine when Mycroft is in the flat.  Although he does also tell Mycroft outright that he's going for Magnusson.   So I don't know if he's hiding Janine just to hide his method?

Anyway, Mary is employed at John's GP practice.  I think it would be difficult to plant her there.  It would need a practice nurse's job to come up (and they often stay until they retire, so possibly a long wait!  Unless one was given a better offer?) and for Mary to be successful in getting the job.  I'm sure Mycroft could somehow arrange that, but it seems overly difficult.   And I'm not sure Mary (who's presumably trying to get away from trouble), would break a contract in that way.  So I don't think she was Mycroft's spy (interesting idea, though!  I wouldn't mind seeing a Mary/Mycroft connection in S4).

The original question: I'm still thinking about that one.  I do think it's a calculated move on Sherlock's part.  He's just waiting for his moment - it's very important that it's witnessed, which I think is why he lets CAM taunt John for so long.  I think he believes it's the right thing to do, and couldn't see an alternative. 

SusiGo wrote:

I think he makes the decision even earlier. After CAM has shown them his non-existing vaults and walks out Sherlock remains standing in front of the room. John asks if they have a plan B and leaves. Then you see Sherlock's face and he closes his eyes. From that moment on he remains outwardly impassive. I think he has realised that CAM's brain is the real threat so the brain has to be destroyed. And that he must be the one to do it.

Yes, he's doing that face that he does when he's not giving anything away.  I think in that moment CAM signed his own death warrant.   In that sense, Sherlock actually does manage to out wit CAM (sort of), in that CAM underestimates how far he will go (in a reminder of the rooftop scene with Moriarty). 

It's a pity, because I really liked CAM as a villain and would liked to have seen more of him.